We've seldom had much 'structure' to our game and are more reliant on the 'off the cuff' style but it hasn't stopped us winning the trophys we have over the last decade using this style of play.

Granted as our halfbacks get slower and slower then the 'off the cuff' style is less likely to succeed as often

Just out of interest, what was our attacking structure under Tony Smith

It is less likely, you are correct. Also becomes more predictable when the tricks have been seen for many years.

Exactly what we are experiencing.

They didn't do too badly against Wigan in the cup.

I get where Flex is coming from with this, especially regarding the defence. Something in me snapped last night before (and then resulting from) the 3rd Cas try before half-time. I am fed up with the last few weeks, of situations where the opponents are in the final 10-20 metres and just going straight through the middle, in massive gaps in our defence. Sick of it. Several times last night we were in similar positions in Cas' final 20, but never had such scores. It seems a disproptionate number of tries against us are coming in this fashion, but conversely not many of ours do.

Either this is an example of our toothless attack compared to others, or it is our wide-open defence around the goal-posts that result in people having a huge gap around the sticks to score the try.

Seeing it in action a couple of times last night for Cas scores, I don't see it was particularly amazing attacking play, it was more just flimsy defence. Surely the centre of the pitch / try line should be where you have the MOST cover; it is on the flanks you would expect to get 'caught short', in terms of numbers.

As I say, something snapped. Teams worse than Leeds keep scoring in such was against us, so why is our defence so susceptible to this when we score very few tries against the opposition in the same way? Or is it actually clever attacking play and therefore the concern lies with Leeds never scoring in this way, when teams against do regularly.

Hopefully it abates and I am less wound up when we play Bradford. If it happens again in that game though, my reaction will be interesting...

So much nonsense spoken about structure from folk who either haven't played or coached. Of course Leeds practice defensive and attacking structures and these are applied, or not, on the field by the players. When the team make mistakes and suffer periods with poor form it never occurs to some that these are player errors. It is all part of sport.

If this was in response to my post, I am not asking if it is done in training / as tactics - I am simply stating why is it that opposition players are routinely able to diver under the sticks after a quick PTB with only one Leeds defender anywhere near them when it happens and why it doesn't happen the other way round?

I see it as purely bad Leeds defence / bad Leeds attack - I wasn't querying 'tactics', 'training', 'play by play position making on a whiteboard' or anything like that. Merely asking how/why it happnes?

Around 12 months ago whilst people were just repetitively coming out with "props/team too old" I pointed out that scoring tries was the problem. We were topping the table for metres made so we must've been doing something ok in the forwards. Granted the back 3 make a lot of metres for us (but people also argue that our backs don't see enough of the ball) so to be top the rest of team must be contributing too to that.

Likewise this year we've made the most metres forward by quite a comfortable distance that won't be caught by any other team in the remaining games. So if we're making the yards forward it's obvious we must be getting down the other end quite a bit but the points for doesn't tell this.

It's also not a "poor result" thing because I highlighted post Warrington at home in the 2nd round this year. We won 18-12 but we should've easily doubled our points in that game.

Saints away was perhaps the clearest example of what the problem is, it's a risk free approach to getting over the line. Let's just run at them and hope they break. I also believe this is why we've conceded less points in the last two years compared to McDermott's first two years as we've not lost field position and possession from aimlessly/risking trying to throw the ball around thus helping us defensively by not letting teams better starting positions to their sets.

Last night showed this, first half we tried keeping it alive and it did work to the extent of we got 3 tries.....but we also conceded 3 tries. 2nd half we didn't try keep it alive as much, hence only 6 points conceded but only 6 scored.

2011/2012 attack was the problem of just thinking throwing it around was the answer. In 2013/2014 we've flipped 180 to being too conservative with the ball......we need to find somewhere in the middle.

Why? Do you start turning green and hulking up?

So do you think everything is ok with leeds defence and attacking protocols?

The defensive protocols are fine. It's individual players not following them that's the problem. Now that usually comes from fatigue which usually comes from quick opposition play the balls. If we control the ruck better I have no doubt our defence will be rock solid again.

The attacking protocols, well I think they're fine too. I don't buy this stuff about attacking structure. We're Leeds. We've never had a rigid attacking structure. A rigid attacking structure is there for teams who don't have the skill and flair to play flashy rugby.
I find teams based around attacking structures incredibly boring to watch. Teams like Huddersfield & Wigan. I'd far rather watch Leeds, Cas or Saints any day of the week.

I thought in the Cas game we looked a lot more confident with the ball and we were passing it along the line a lot more than in recent games. Our timing of runs was a little bit off and our centres and wingers still don't quite seem to know what each other is going to do.
That would be my area to work on rather than going down the attacking structures route, which in SL appears to simply be throw as many dummy runners/blockers as possible into the defensive line and hope you don't get pinged for obstruction. (And then whine like a tart when you do.)

The attacking play where we repeatedly throw the second man pass along the line appears to be the only structured play we have.

One of the problems on the left is Moon who seems incapable of running in a straight line - he often cramps his winger for space due to his diagonal running.

Yet he is our form centre and tops our try assists and this season already has a higher number that anyone last year

Leeds have shown this season they can defend well and attack well so nothing wromg with your protocols. When players lose form and their timing if just a bit off the things that looked good one week can look poo the next. Accept that it is the players that recently have not performed and not the coaches.

Class players will regain form given time and patience. They know more than anyone when things are not right.

That comment is far too sensible for this thread , have a word with yourself .

The fact still remains his running style cramps his winger for space - Thursday night highlighted this

What about effective rugby?

Wigan have scored more points, and have a greater points difference. They are the champions.

Effective. Results.

It's funny to me you mention flair and flashy play. Running around aimlessly along the line, throwing hail marys out wide, i don't consider that good to watch. Wigan create space and overlaps out wide with structure in the middle so their wide players get space to run and score good tries. That is good to watch. Imagine how good leeds could be to watch with hall, briscoe, watkins and moon being put into similiar situations.

It's also again funny you mention flair and flashy play. 3 of leeds 4 tries were from kicks the other night.

Awesome.

Yeah, and this is usually followed straight after by the long ball out wide to ablett/moon on the left or watkins on the right. It can look pretty but it's not enough to confuse the defence.

It's easy for the defence to cover across, so it ends up relying on some form of miracle play from these players. Remember the hall try at the magic weekend where moon had to suck 3 defenders into the tackle, before producing a magic ball to hall who then had to use all his strength and skill to squeeze in and ground it one handed in the corner?

Magic plays. You can't rely on them.

There`s some right e on here from all the Mighty Terrace Test Caps.

The facts also remain that Hall is our top try scorer and Moon is top for try assists and they have built up a good understanding which cannot be said for the Watkins / Briscoe combo. Moon with his highly effective running style is our most likley player to create a try.

And yet they're out of the Challenge Cup and only level on points with Leeds in the league.

Aggregate scoreline over the 2 Leeds Wigan games this season - Leeds 42 - Wigan 30

Awesome.

No wigan create space by sending dummy runners in front of the ball to cause obstruction. I don't find that either good attacking play or good to watch.
We were managing to put Hall, Briscoe, Watkins & Moon into good attacking space earlier in the season without the need for the boring blockers that many teams seem to like to use, and then b1tch and whine about when they're rightly done for obstruction.
There's no reason we can't get back to that.

Given that Leeds attack mostly down his side his try and assist ratio is bound to be higher - would Watkins create and score more with the same level of supply I for one would say yes. It is all conjecture

Indeed!

Now that Hardaker is back in the team hopefully we will again better see the attacking prowess of Watkins....and hopefully Briscoe. Zak does seem to favour linking up down the right. This should be encouraged and perfected. That little extra space created is all that Watkins needs.

If Watkins wore the cherry and white he and his winger would score double the amount of tries they score at Leeds and they would also concede fewer, IMO.

The at times bizarre current application of the obstruction laws yet again rewarded poor defensive play by Leeds' right centre.