Always teasing, always have a point albeit it's rarely relevant to owt.

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Probably deserved. Shocking behaviour from someone who was recently banging on about how other clubs should merge or be told to f**k off from SL when he himself can't get along with a fellow Leeds fan ..... even if he can be an annoying little ..... only kidding.

We have struggled in attack all year especially on the opposition line. I have said this now for nearly three years we are picking a team around sinfield at stand off and this is all because Burrow was not cutting it as scrum half and the burrow mcquire combo not quite right. So we move burrow to hooker to allow our stand off mcquire to move to scrum half. If our coach has no confidence in mcshane as starting hooker I would put sinfield at hooker next year and move mcquire to stand off and sign a quality scrum half like Dobson to move the team around the field and give our three quarters some quality ball. Most teams I have seen this year in superleague are far better and structured with the ball in hand than leeds are. We have been masking over this problem since buderus left and Lunt managed to fill the void at the end of last year. Sinfield has always looked good at hooker for gb and his distribution and speed around the ruck are excellent. Burrow to play as impact off the bench and after we have raidered hull kr for Dobson at the end of the season why not sign mickey pea also. We need to get a good rumbing prop that can take the weight off peacock and Kyle and putt fear in the opposition. Moore needs to be released he is not good enough for Leeds IMO. When bailey went off on Monday we fell apart !!

I have already acknowledged his try and the agressive run he made just after that with his only tackle bust. Ok and he did make a lot of tackles but too many of those were 2nd or 3rd man in where he was able to add to his tackle tally yet wasn't effective enough ie: as an additional tackler he didn't bring the man down but rather was seen hanging on while the attacker made more metres. One of his big shots also looked a bit like a shoulder charge.

I am not sure what you mean by doing the business down the middle. Kylie made twice as many metres as Bailey. Kirke also looked solid in defence and was on before our 3rd try. Replacement Moore came on after their first try and I though made an inpact and his contribution included more metres, and extra tackle bust and an offload all more than Bailey in much less game time.

Vickery made more metres (just!) in fewer carries than Hall he also made 3 tackles more than Hall and was errorless. So while not pulling trees up made a greater contribution hence my comment which was not disingenuous. By the way I am a big Hall fan.

I presume from watching his effort he made 40-50 tackles. How many is many as 2nd/3rd man in?

You could argue he slows the oppositions play the ball down and allows his chargers to get back the ten.

A bit like a shoulder charge isn't a shoulder charge though is it? He wrapped his arms around the player. The ref didn't moan about it, neither did the Saints players, haven't heard Brown moaning about it and the RFL havn't cited it. So not sure what your point is. I like my props putting on the big hit....right side of boarder line. They're props god dammit.

If only metres made included sideways darts.

I don't think it should even matter - I can't recall being 2nd or 3rd man in ever causing Juan a problem for Jones-Buchanan or Delaney's Opta tackle counts in the past.

Athough it takes less out of you physically than being first into the tackle, it is however a necessary requirement to have 2nd or 3rd man into the tackle with the aim to stop the forward movement and put the man down quickly. With JJB & Delaney's this is usually the result. These two along with JP are our best tacklers with a high number of 1st man in or solo tackles. All three manage to make big metres too!

As usual you choose to miss my point......which was that too many of Bailey's 2nd/3rd man tackles in did not stop the forward momentum and did not put the man down effectively enough. And he does not seem able to combine a high tackle count with decent forward metres. I do recognise his good work rate but commented that much of it was not effective enough.

Just seen the stats for the Saints match. Watkins 38 tackles including 9 at marker. Stats more suitable for a hooker than a strike centre.

So if you're saying =#0000FFusually you must accept on occasions it's not always the case with Delaney and Jones-Buchanan either but it's Bailey you're calling out here from Monday's game. I don't necessarily agree it's always the intention to put the man down quickly. Controlling the speed of the ruck by delaying the play the ball can also be an aim of the gang tackle tactic, holding a man up allows defences to set, anticipate the call of held from the referee and put the man to ground at the last second.



=#0000FFAnd play long minutes also - perhaps one contributes to the other. As Peacock, Jones-Buchanan and Delaney are in the top four tackles made by Leeds players according to Opta (Sinfield being the other) they may well lead on 1st man in on that basis - equally they may lead the numbers for 2nd and 3rd men in also - unlike you I haven't seen the breakdown.



Do you have any specific examples where Bailey's 2nd/3rd man tackles weren't to your satisfaction so that I may have a look? I'm sure you're correct but I've scanned through his opening stint and didn't find much of a negative on that aspect.

What I did see though was the one on one tackle on Thompson that forced an error in the fourth minute that led to Watkins opening the scoring. The smashing of one of the St Helens danger men (Puletua) in the 17th minute - again Bailey was 1st man in and drawing a penalty from Wilkin for a high shot two minutes later also. Unfortunately for Leeds he also got attracted to Howarth for the opening St Helens try as did Jones-Buchanan for the Soliola try shortly after. Yet more soft tries conceded in and around the ruck close to the line.




Much of it? Without examples to highlight the issue it's difficult to judge if you're being entirely fair to Bailey here.

Bailey does have a good work rate for a prop/loose forward and has good lateral movement enabling him to adjust and make tackles other props would struggle with. Bailey, Sinfield and Ward average 26 successful tackles a game in the SL Regular Rounds - Peacock 29, Delaney 32 and Jones-Buchanan 34. I don't have the minutes played but my impression is that Bailey gets fewer minutes on average than all those above him so rather than painting him as in some way ineffective we should recognise his value much as we do Peacock, Jones-Buchanan and Delaney.

Good stuff TVOC!!

Bailey is at best an average prop who tackles effectively.

Yes but I was commenting specifically on Monday's game only.



Indeed that is one aspect and preventing momentum is another. But there was little of this tactic on Monday but too much ineffective tackling IMO. Their forwards gave them good go forward momentum for their acting half back to benefit from quick ball.



I have already covered this point. JJB, Delaney and JP usually are very effective whether 1st, 2nd or 3rd in IMO. On Monday Bailey was a starting prop in place of JP and I guess was expected to fulfill more minutes than the other props so one would expect a higher than normal tackle count which he achieved. But like I said too many of them were ineffective when compared to the other 3 named above IMO of course.



Nothing specific as my comments were based on my impression of the game as a whole viewed just once at the time. Bailey started well, scored a good try and followed it by a good run and tackle bust but for much of the rest failed to dominate in the tackle or in carries.



As previously stated my comments are based on what I saw on the night. You seem to have the time to look at the VT's so why only re-look at the first opening stint?



If you wish to compare the work rate of Bailey with JP, Delaney and JJB you cannot ignore the other important areas of number of carries and metres made. In this department Bailey falls way short of a front line prop.

As you know I never have been taken in by all that hype and nonsense that dims the sight of his fan club members. However I have consistently praised Bailey for his usually reliable defensive efforts - but have also consistently pointed out his lack of go forward. IMO he was best as a 2nd rower because he lacks the primary role of a prop which is to provide impact in the carry and make good metres to put the side on the front foot.

For Saints Walmsley and Manu were allowed to make too many metres and tackle busts. Without a second look at the VT I cannot say if Bailey was any more or less dominated than the other forwards but he did along with JJB and Hardaker make defensive errors that led to tries.

However having made these points I do not single out Bailey as the reason for our defeat. IMO after what should have been a winning start we failed to dominate their pack for the remainder of the game, made silly errors and lacked creativity from our 2 half backs. These factors plus a good and spirited come back from the Saints produced their victory. For me though it was one that got away.

The momentum of the game seemed to change with Bailey leaving. Moore makes some nice runs, but his PTBs are awfully slow, and he doesn't control the opposition PTB speed well either.

As I found no evidence to support your claims re Bailey being ineffective as 2nd and 3rd man in, I chose to put the ball back in your court rather than continue what was appearing to be a fruitless exercise. Taking an overview (such as using the often flawed Opta statistics) is one approach but I find highlighting specific examples enables a reasoned debate to follow on actual clearly identified incidents.

Otherwise the danger is that you end up shedding more heat than light creating controversy about a given individual rather than providing any useful information by which to judge.

Your are the one questioning my comment which you based on watching only the opening stint. I note you were quite happy to quote the often flawed Opta stats for many a past year. Game stats are never going to be an exact science whether collected live or from the VT for obvious reasons. Because the main function of game stats is an aid for the coaches and not an information source for bean counters it doesn't really matter if the odd total is not spot on.

I asked for some specific examples to back up the point you were making re-Bailey. You've provided none. Why is that?

Re-Opta, I refer to them as little as possible but almost always remember to add 'according to' while also pointing out issues concerning clear and quantifiable inaccuracies when I pick them up.

I expect statistics to be accurate at source - before they are inevitably spun to fit agendas.

In quite a number of Bailey's 2nd/3rd man in tackling he can be seen hugging the attacker around the waist while allowing them to walz along gaining further metres. As the first tacklers in have gone upstairs to clamp the ball Bailey as an additional tackler should go in low and prevent their progress. If you care to look at the VT you will see plenty of examples.

He wasn't second or third man in last night on Logan Tomkins.

Another example of his complete idiocy that wipes out any positives he might once have brought to the side.

Frankly, he's a liability and Leeds would be well rid.

It was daft. An example of him at his worst.

But just for that one action you'd base not retaining him? Boarderline -fit. I'm glad our hiring and firing team will look at the bigger picture. It also works both ways in the areas he does well you wouldn't want to keep him solely beacuse he scored a try from an impossible position. Was a skilled score - or 'another example of idiocy' ?

Yes, that's exactly what I'm basing it on. That one incident. Really.

The fact that he didn't take a single hit up until around the 15th minute can't work in his favour either...

Probably busy on Twitter trying to shift his clothing range...

As this is the St Helens game thread Bailey took in Leeds' third carry on their first set of possession - just after the minute mark ....... but if you're talking the Wigan game it was 16 minutes 33 seconds or therabouts before he got his hands on the ball. He did however run in three times as a decoy - often difficult to tell with Leeds whether those runs were by design or by accident but if deliberate it's an effort that gets ignored in the stats.

Grow up.

I don't hear you lambasting other pro rugby players for sideline income streams.

e.g. the army of Herbalife pushers.