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| Quote ="LeedsDave"I think you are being too kind on him here. He's played far more than I would have had him playing.'"
Well certainly this year it's been due to a lack of alternatives, with Ward and Ablett both missing and JJB not having the legs to play as a wide-running second rower any more.
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| Even though confirmed leaving at end of year, Achurch has had ample opportunity this year to show what he can do, to potentially earn another contract in superleague. The odd moment apart he has looked very average & his gutless performance v Hull (And big Frank in particular) was a disgrace to the shirt.
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| Quote ="Juan Cornetto"None of us know the management or boardroom discussions that go on in private. But I would say that most onlookers would agree that Caddick holds the purse strings and that GH is a frugal manager and it is my understanding that he plays the lead role in recruitment with the final say. BM (& other coaches before) will have taken the job knowing this. So to suggest the if Mac did not get his way on recruitment he should have resigned is easy for others to say when it is not their livelihood at stake.
As events have proven our recruitment policy to cover the loss of Sinfield & JP was seriously flawed and if I am right with regard to the above then this would explain why GH can hardly sack Mac when the responsibility is with himself.
There are too many coincidences to be ignored for our dramatic fall from grace. First major factor IMO is the the loss of our 2 best and most important players which have left the side leaderless on and off field and which appears to have caused a catastrophic loss of confidence and it has also shown some of the squad to have been well overrated. The second major factor is the still ongoing season long serious injury crisis which cannot be brushed aside so easily. The destruction of the training facilities was also a factor but one that should have been overcome some time ago. The coach and his methods are the same as when we won so many trophies so why would he suddenly lose the dressing room and from what I hear they are all working hard in training.
The one unexplained fact is the woeful performances from the likes of senior players Hardaker and Watkins which has gone on too long just to be poor form. I still have a nagging feeling that some players may have other issues and usually serious ones concern money. Could it be the bonus for winning the treble was disappointing or could our close season attempt to sign Sam Burgess have involved and upset certain players going the other way or could it have blown apart the players faith in the current pay policy?
I claim no inside knowledge and I do not know any of the players Dad's, just musings to try to explain some of the possible factors.'"
For the record, I can claim no inside knowledge but I have dealt with Caddick's other businesses extensively over the last few years. My experience would suggest to me that Caddick allows a good deal of autonomy within his various businesses and that he is not massively involved in day to day decision making. So, if mistakes have been made, I would suggest that the book stops with GH.
With regards to GH, if he has made mistakes, I would suggest that he is allowed more than a little latitude given the way the club has perfumed since he was involved. In a similar fashion, I think McDermott is entitled be afforded the benefit of the doubt.
I have to agree that the performances of the likes of Watkins, Hardaker and Hall before he was injured, are somewhat surprising, although it has been suggested to me that Hardaker has some personal issues.
Where I disagree is with regards to past performances, the frailties we are currently experiencing were evident last year and the year before. With some consistency over McDermott's tenure, we have struggled to convert red zone pressure into points and the marker defence has been found wanting. The structural deficiencies on Friday were laughable; we conceded two tries directly from acting half back, one of those without the attacking player being touched and another score came directly from a penalty tap. Any fully professional team can have no excuse for such basic errors.
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| Quote ="FGB"Even though confirmed leaving at end of year, Achurch has had ample opportunity this year to show what he can do, to potentially earn another contract in superleague. The odd moment apart he has looked very average & his gutless performance v Hull (And big Frank in particular) was a disgrace to the shirt.'"
Have to agree...I was of the opinion Achurch never really got a chance to show what he can do in his undoubted better position of wide running Paul Medlley-like-second-rower ....but this season by default he has had ample opportunity to promote his credentials. He has failed; proving he has even less appetite for the 'dirty stuff' than the afore mentioned Medley.
Still...he would def mak a better winger than Golding or Luke Briscoe: we really are scraping the barrell.
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| Just a quick query for discussion on the try scored by Clarke(?) from acting half. The two defenders on either side of marker were Cuthburtson and Galloway. These two have been caught out in a similar fashion on about five or six occasions to my knowledge. Coming from the NRL, are they expecting the marker defence to be much better and quite frankly, should the marker defence be better? To quote JC, just a musing.
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| Quote ="Ronzy"Just a quick query for discussion on the try scored by Clarke(?) from acting half. The two defenders on either side of marker were Cuthburtson and Galloway. These two have been caught out in a similar fashion on about five or six occasions to my knowledge. Coming from the NRL, are they expecting the marker defence to be much better and quite frankly, should the marker defence be better? To quote JC, just a musing.'"
Five or six occassions?? Either way is it not about time they realised the issues and tried to remedy them in training and stopped the problem by the time they reach the playing field?
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| Quote ="Ronzy"Just a quick query for discussion on the try scored by Clarke(?) from acting half. The two defenders on either side of marker were Cuthburtson and Galloway. These two have been caught out in a similar fashion on about five or six occasions to my knowledge. Coming from the NRL, are they expecting the marker defence to be much better and quite frankly, should the marker defence be better? To quote JC, just a musing.'"
Cuthbertson was - sort of - at marker for the final try of the night IIRC, but despite not standing square still wasn't able to make the tackle on Clark (had a shot at his ankles but he stepped out of it).
Galloway was at A defender to the left of the ruck, and flew up to deal with the non-existent threat of the first receiver rather than spotting Cuthbertson struggling and tucking in to give him some help. Not the first time he's done that at A defender this season either, JJB being another common culprit.
The threat is always the ball. The bloke with it is the one you need to deal with. Rushing out of the line seems to be an attempt to make it look like it's not your problem. You had your man, not your fault if the dummy half then strolls through the gap you left because he's too quick for the markers.
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| At least the Warrington score from a tap last week required a pass so some improvement over the effort for the Gelling try at the DW Stadium. No not really, especially as same enthusiastic Leeds defender involved in both.
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| Quote ="Andy Gilder"Cuthbertson was - sort of - at marker for the final try of the night IIRC, but despite not standing square still wasn't able to make the tackle on Clark (had a shot at his ankles but he stepped out of it).
Galloway was at A defender to the left of the ruck, and flew up to deal with the non-existent threat of the first receiver rather than spotting Cuthbertson struggling and tucking in to give him some help. Not the first time he's done that at A defender this season either, JJB being another common culprit.
The threat is always the ball. The bloke with it is the one you need to deal with. Rushing out of the line seems to be an attempt to make it look like it's not your problem. You had your man, not your fault if the dummy half then strolls through the gap you left because he's too quick for the markers.'"
Yep. With a reasonably quick PTB Clarke is more than capable of getting beyond the first marker, second marker would have a better chance but the hole he walked through to score was left by Galloway running straight up the pitch, passing Clarke coming the other way, for some truly mysterious reason (no attacker in sight).
We have some old boys in the middle who are so lacking in confidence pace wise that they are charging out of the defensive line rather than reacting to what the attack is doing. if you are agile and can change direction quickly then moving up quick can be very effective - although it's always good to spot a runner first rather than just run at nothing - but I could step Galloway with my feet tied together.
It highlights - along with the stupidity of Achurch for Dwyer's try - that it's not confidence or lack of effort it's just plain stupidity on defence or in some cases guys who are simply past it.
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| Quote ="DHM"second marker would have a better chance '"
Second marker was Ferres IIRC, but he'd already indicated he was going right. All the more reason for Galloway to get his head up and tuck in a bit to give Cuthbertson (who was way too tight because he was late getting into position) a bit of cover.
Like you say, there are players trying to cheat in defence because they know they can't get where they need to be otherwise. Ablett did it on the right edge a few times early in the year, handing off a player on his inside to nobody in particular so he can start sliding towards the touchline.
The disease of conceding from tap penalties isn't just restricted to the first team. The 19s conceded one at Cas where four players had a shot at the ball carrier one pass out from a tap and he still got the ball down. Not one of them actually hit below the waist.
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| Galloway, Garbutt and Cuthbertson have spent their careers using strength rather than speed stopping big men running straight at them from the ruck. On the occasions where a smaller, more mobile man takes a dart the Galloway would have had Robbie Farah - lower to the ground, more nimble - to make the initial tackle - probably from marker - before the prop comes in to add force.
There's a reason 18st 6'4'' guys struggle against pace from the ptb, and there's a reason no other team defends every tackle with a prop on either side of the ruck with a big gap between them, and there's a reason that there's a position called hooker, where a smaller, quicker but still strong forward is involved in 40-50 tackles per game.
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| Quote ="Ronzy"For the record, I can claim no inside knowledge but I have dealt with Caddick's other businesses extensively over the last few years. My experience would suggest to me that Caddick allows a good deal of autonomy within his various businesses and that he is not massively involved in day to day decision making. So, if mistakes have been made, I would suggest that the book stops with GH.
With regards to GH, if he has made mistakes, I would suggest that he is allowed more than a little latitude given the way the club has perfumed since he was involved. In a similar fashion, I think McDermott is entitled be afforded the benefit of the doubt.
I have to agree that the performances of the likes of Watkins, Hardaker and Hall before he was injured, are somewhat surprising, although it has been suggested to me that Hardaker has some personal issues.
Where I disagree is with regards to past performances, the frailties we are currently experiencing were evident last year and the year before. With some consistency over McDermott's tenure, we have struggled to convert red zone pressure into points and the marker defence has been found wanting. The structural deficiencies on Friday were laughable; we conceded two tries directly from acting half back, one of those without the attacking player being touched and another score came directly from a penalty tap. Any fully professional team can have no excuse for such basic errors.'"
I actually do agree with you that frailties were evident last year including a massive drop off after the Wembley win. I felt there were clear signs that several in the squad were getting on and past achieving their best on a weekly basis and I saw flaws in Watkins, Hardaker and Sutcliffe. The management took a gamble on Sutcliffe recovering from serious injury and being good enough to start at 6 and they also risked McGuire staying free from injury.
However nobody could have predicted the extent and length of the injuries nor the inability of the team to play to the previous structures without on field leaders telling them where to stand and what to do. There does seem a lack of rugby nouse in some of them. Laziness and poor awareness at marker have cost us so many points this year and I do not think the squad looks fit enough.
Last year Cuthbertson with his offloads was a key element in our success. Towards the end of last season there were also clear signs that opposition sides had begun to work out how to deal with him so this year he is nowhere near as effective which has led him to make silly offloads which lose possession.
So we have a series of factors which when added together have brought about this huge loss of confidence creating a negative momentum leading to our downfall. Perhaps the return to fuller strength and a period in the middle 8s will see us become competitive again but we still need to recuit some top quality playmaker/leadership.
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| Quote ="nantwichexile"Five or six occassions?? Either way is it not about time they realised the issues and tried to remedy them in training and stopped the problem by the time they reach the playing field?
'"
Do you not think they will have been working on this? My worry is that some of the players are not good enough without onfield mentors as they lack the rugby nouse to spot the dangers.
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| Quote ="Juan Cornetto"I actually do agree with you that frailties were evident last year including a massive drop off after the Wembley win. I felt there were clear signs that several in the squad were getting on and past achieving their best on a weekly basis and I saw flaws in Watkins, Hardaker and Sutcliffe. The management took a gamble on Sutcliffe recovering from serious injury and being good enough to start at 6 and they also risked McGuire staying free from injury.
However nobody could have predicted the extent and length of the injuries nor the inability of the team to play to the previous structures without on field leaders telling them where to stand and what to do. There does seem a lack of rugby nouse in some of them. Laziness and poor awareness at marker have cost us so many points this year and I do not think the squad looks fit enough.
Last year Cuthbertson with his offloads was a key element in our success. Towards the end of last season there were also clear signs that opposition sides had begun to work out how to deal with him so this year he is nowhere near as effective which has led him to make silly offloads which lose possession.
So we have a series of factors which when added together have brought about this huge loss of confidence creating a negative momentum leading to our downfall. Perhaps the return to fuller strength and a period in the middle 8s will see us become competitive again but we still need to recuit some top quality playmaker/leadership.'"
Head coach still doing a first class job though?
Just asking.
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| Quote ="Juan Cornetto"I actually do agree with you that frailties were evident last year including a massive drop off after the Wembley win. I felt there were clear signs that several in the squad were getting on and past achieving their best on a weekly basis and I saw flaws in Watkins, Hardaker and Sutcliffe. The management took a gamble on Sutcliffe recovering from serious injury and being good enough to start at 6 and they also risked McGuire staying free from injury.
'"
You're deliberately missing Ronzy's point that the quoted frailties (a) red zone pressure, b) marker defence) have been apparent CONSISTENTLY through McDermott's tenure. With an exception that proves the rule over the first half of 2015 when Aiton was playing Booker the only answers he's seemed to have have been for a) Kev will do something, and for b) Jamie will do something. Without that - and also without the fig leaf of Hardaker's try-stopping cover defence - we look completely lost, but it's not like the potential problems have been hidden for the last few years.
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| Quote ="craigizzard"
There's a reason 18st 6'4'' guys struggle against pace from the ptb, and there's a reason no other team defends every tackle with a prop on either side of the ruck with a big gap between them,'"
It's the weakest spot in the defence and we are horrible at defending it at the moment. It was somewhere that Sinny in his younger days and the likes of Diskin and Buderus covered superbly. Peacock was very agile in defence for a big man and was also great at covering that area. Being a little generous to Falloon the times I have seen him covering the middle he seemed to be on his own covering 10 yard gaps in the middle of two props who can't move sideways. And we used to think Luke Burgess was flat footed, he was like Wayne Sleep compared to Garbutt and Galloway. Happy days.
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| Quote ="craigizzard"You're deliberately missing Ronzy's point that the quoted frailties (a) red zone pressure, b) marker defence) have been apparent CONSISTENTLY through McDermott's tenure. With an exception that proves the rule over the first half of 2015 when Aiton was playing Booker the only answers he's seemed to have have been for a) Kev will do something, and for b) Jamie will do something. Without that - and also without the fig leaf of Hardaker's try-stopping cover defence - we look completely lost, but it's not like the potential problems have been hidden for the last few years.'"
I am not deliberately missing Ronzy's point. I do not agree regarding marker defense. In each of the last three years (2015, 2014 and 2013) we CONSISTENTLY made the most marker tackles in SL under Mac's tenure. With regard to red zone pressure this could be better but most other sides would say the same. I think only 2 other sides have averaged more points and only 2 sides have scored more tries over Mac's tenure.
Apart from the treble last year Leeds won many plaudits from opposition fans for the attractive style of rugby that we played which is based on less structure to allow the players to use their individual skills with great backing up and offloading. Now if you take out sufficient of those individual skills through retirement and injury and the replacements are not up to it then you have a problem. Which is where we are now.
To change the style and structure takes time and is all the more difficult if you only have half your first choices to work with and some of those selected are unable to train during the week. I have no idea, and I am sure neither do you, exactly what the coaches have tried to do on the training field to overcome the very obvious errors the players are making each week. Why I choose to blame some of the players is that we can see with our own eyes they are guilty of getting the basics wrong which those same so called professional players have been able to get right previously. It is not rocket science and Mac looks mystified as to why they keep making the same errors in matches which they are not doing in training.
We were over reliant on certain players who have not been replaced with sufficient quality which most of you critics failed to spot. BM hasn't the luxury of dropping any of the error brigade as he has to scratch around to get a side out each week. We also now know we have a few overrated players that without our retired leaders are not good enough to step up to the mark.
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| Quote ="Juan Cornetto"
Apart from the treble last year Leeds won many plaudits from opposition fans for the attractive style of rugby that we played which is based on less structure to allow the players to use their individual skills with great backing up and offloading. Now if you take out sufficient of those individual skills through retirement and injury and the replacements are not up to it then you have a problem. Which is where we are now.
'"
Adapt or die. Sinfield is gone, burrow and mcguire are past their best and on their way out. Those players were the backbone of that style.
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| Quote ="FlexWheeler"Adapt or die. Sinfield is gone, burrow and mcguire are past their best and on their way out. Those players were the backbone of that style.'"
I disagree that Sinfield was the backbone of the style we played most of last year. He was the backbone to efficient professional wins like the job we did on Cas at Wembley or the ultra close playoffs semi's and finals. The stuff we were doing last when we were racking up points, putting scores on Saints, the 2nd half demolishing of Hull and thumping Wire at our place weren't from a style that had Sinfield at the heart of it. Just on regular seasons performances he would've struggled to make my top 10 performers for Leeds last year.
The style we had last year in attack didn't need a fantastic organiser. It did require a lot of effort and energy to keep that style of play up and keep the ball alive. It required quick PTB by ball carriers winning collisions and offloading and a good distributing hooker to keep up the pace and flow of the attack....none of which we are getting now.
That's the annoying thing about our attack this year, it really didn't need Sinfield there to make it work until we got to the crunch games at the end of the year. Sinfield doesn't need to be there for professional RL players to know to kick it on the last tackle. What we did in attack last year during the regular rounds geared towards a style that didn't need Sinfield to hold their hands and guide them through it.
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| If we finish bottom of the league (after 23 rounds), will BMD be the only coach in any professional sport ever to take a club from winning every domestic trophy available to bottom in one season? (tvoc?)
Ignominious honour that would be.
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| Quote ="ThePrinter"I disagree that Sinfield was the backbone of the style we played most of last year. He was the backbone to efficient professional wins like the job we did on Cas at Wembley or the ultra close playoffs semi's and finals. The stuff we were doing last when we were racking up points, putting scores on Saints, the 2nd half demolishing of Hull and thumping Wire at our place weren't from a style that had Sinfield at the heart of it. Just on regular seasons performances he would've struggled to make my top 10 performers for Leeds last year.
The style we had last year in attack didn't need a fantastic organiser. It did require a lot of effort and energy to keep that style of play up and keep the ball alive. It required quick PTB by ball carriers winning collisions and offloading and a good distributing hooker to keep up the pace and flow of the attack....none of which we are getting now.
That's the annoying thing about our attack this year, it really didn't need Sinfield there to make it work until we got to the crunch games at the end of the year. Sinfield doesn't need to be there for professional RL players to know to kick it on the last tackle. What we did in attack last year during the regular rounds geared towards a style that didn't need Sinfield to hold their hands and guide them through it.'"
That's all great. But you've missed what I was saying. I included Burrow and Mcguire with sinfield. They worked in tandom. You under sell sinfield as well, he was quite good at playing what was in front of him over the years, 2 examples from last year off the top of my head the watkins try in 1st half v warrington in the super 8's, watkins try 2nd half hull challenge cup. Look at the amount of times sinfield and mcguire combined in grand finals for kick tries and the like.
Now Juan Cornetto, the resident chief apologist was doing some turd polishing and mentioned Leeds style. I'm pointing out that of the 3 key cogs, one is gone and 2 are on their way out so leeds need to adapt.
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| Just on Cuthbertson, I'd add that without his offloads he looks very ordinary - underpowered for prop and too slow for second row.
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| Quote ="FlexWheeler"That's all great. But you've missed what I was saying. I included Burrow and Mcguire with sinfield. They worked in tandom. You under sell sinfield as well, he was quite good at playing what was in front of him over the years, 2 examples from last year off the top of my head the watkins try in 1st half v warrington in the super 8's, watkins try 2nd half hull challenge cup. Look at the amount of times sinfield and mcguire combined in grand finals for kick tries and the like.
Now Juan Cornetto, the resident chief apologist was doing some turd polishing and mentioned Leeds style. I'm pointing out that of the 3 key cogs, one is gone and 2 are on their way out so leeds need to adapt.'"
Most of your examples above came from cup or GF's which as I said he was still massively important in the crunch games. But week to week in the league he wasn't so much. Look at the disallowed McGuire try vs Wigan last year. Passed through loads of hands, Sinfield barely involved, doesn't take a great organiser or structure to do. Just plenty of energy and quick ptb's. The persons most key Cuthbertson and Aiton.
I dare say the style of the play we used in attack last year that we're actually missing Aiton more than Sinfield. Their was games early last year when Sinfield missed or Saints way when he started on the bench that we didn't lose our style. When we lost Aiton we lost it completely but managed to drag ourselves over the line.
The way we attacked last year wasn't reliant on Sinfield. It was reliant on winning collisions and getting quick PTB's with good quick distribution from a proper hooker. The reason Cuthbertson isn't going as well isn't because teams have suddenly worked out that you need to stop him offloading (they'll have known that several games into last year) it because he's lost Aiton who he had a great combination with. Who helped us win collisions with his dummy half work and distribution which in turn let the likes of Cuthbertson run at less settled defences and get his arm free more easily and most times when he did Aiton was backing up to catch the offload and start the second wave of the attack.
The way we attacked last year is only really do-able off winning collisions and good speed PTB's letting us go at less organised defensive lines and that's more down to the absence of a good quality 9 that we aren't getting close to that.
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| Quote ="ThePrinter"Quote ="FlexWheeler"That's all great. But you've missed what I was saying. I included Burrow and Mcguire with sinfield. They worked in tandom. You under sell sinfield as well, he was quite good at playing what was in front of him over the years, 2 examples from last year off the top of my head the watkins try in 1st half v warrington in the super 8's, watkins try 2nd half hull challenge cup. Look at the amount of times sinfield and mcguire combined in grand finals for kick tries and the like.
Now Juan Cornetto, the resident chief apologist was doing some turd polishing and mentioned Leeds style. I'm pointing out that of the 3 key cogs, one is gone and 2 are on their way out so leeds need to adapt.'"
Most of your examples above came from cup or GF's which as I said he was still massively important in the crunch games. But week to week in the league he wasn't so much. Look at the disallowed McGuire try vs Wigan last year. Passed through loads of hands, Sinfield barely involved, doesn't take a great organiser or structure to do. Just plenty of energy and quick ptb's. The persons most key Cuthbertson and Aiton.
I dare say the style of the play we used in attack last year that we're actually missing Aiton more than Sinfield. Their was games early last year when Sinfield missed or Saints way when he started on the bench that we didn't lose our style. When we lost Aiton we lost it completely but managed to drag ourselves over the line.
The way we attacked last year wasn't reliant on Sinfield. It was reliant on winning collisions and getting quick PTB's with good quick distribution from a proper hooker. The reason Cuthbertson isn't going as well isn't because teams have suddenly worked out that you need to stop him offloading (they'll have known that several games into last year) it because he's lost Aiton who he had a great combination with. Who helped us win collisions with his dummy half work and distribution which in turn let the likes of Cuthbertson run at less settled defences and get his arm free more easily and most times when he did Aiton was backing up to catch the offload and start the second wave of the attack.
The way we attacked last year is only really do-able off winning collisions and good speed PTB's letting us go at less organised defensive lines and that's more down to the absence of a good quality 9 that we aren't getting close to that.'"
That all sounds very convincing, until you realise that Aiton missed a good portion of the season. To my mind, (I don't rely on stats) the vast majority of our plays ran through either Sinfield or McGuire.
I know you like illustration so, let's consider the Grand Final. One try arising from off the cuff play and that was an structured attack, which had broken down.
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| Quote ="BrisbaneRhino"Just on Cuthbertson, I'd add that without his offloads he looks very ordinary - underpowered for prop and too slow for second row.'"
Had it not been for the fact we saw what he could do last year, I think he'd be getting some right stick on here. Imagine if this had been his first season with us.
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