That's the crux of it for me the coaching of him. Agree he is great to watch attacking the line, shame he doesn't see more ball in attack

I think the sentence you finish with could apply to Watkins just as easily as Atkins.

I'm playing devils advocate slightly as I'm a huge fan but coaching defence while obviously easier than teaching someone to do things with the ball which Watkins can do isn't as easy as you're making out.

Sal - Quite possibly yes. Saints also got to Burrow a bit defensively and they attacked to the right more than anyone else.

But apart from those positions the forwards are good, yes?

Yes other than that the pack looks good!!

Phew, that's a relief then, I was beginning to think we'll struggle to put a team out next season.

What we appear to have is a team with no structured attack or structured defence. A team seemingly and increasingly incapable of winning without McGuire - although that could just be a coincidence. An absolute triumph of coaching.

As for selecting 'Lee Smith light' on the bench to make only his fourth 1st grade appearance ..... was there a prize on offer for fielding the least experienced player in a Challenge Cup Final?

Apparently nantwichexile has some incriminating pictures of Bri. He said if he didn't pick Keinhorst, Singleton and Hood he'd show them to the Leeds board. Bri told nantwich he would but Hood & Singleton were playing dual reg games so were unavailable.

They settled on Keinhorst. Sound crazy? So does the fact that we have a fully fit squad bar McGuire and not one player from the top 25 could force themselves into the final 17 over a kid who at best looks raw and while he is obviously talented was in no way ready for that game.

Who said it was easy? Certainly, not me. You're confusing statements of fact with criticism, which given my feck wit comment was entirely my own fault.

A quality coach is there to improve the players and can do that job. What we have is a good man, who has some coaching skills but, against quality opposition, he is way out of his depth.

You implied it was!

I agree by the way, but not all players can or want to be coached to be better defensively. I doubt this is the case with Watkins but I don't know.

Du bist richtig



"Kid" ? He's 22

Yet he is the coach of the current SL and world champions!?!
Think I'm with BM on this one

We all have opinions but, given the games won and last columns, regardless of the championship, I would suggest that BM is not quite up to the job. The specific issue of player development is th mark of a good coach and, to my mind, Watkins has lacked that development.

From what I have seen and heard of him, I can't deny that I have warmed to him. However, my opinion is based purely on what I see on the pitch and, quite frankly, it is never convincing and often a shambles.

He's a right centre.

Thought Wire's tries down our right hand side came down to Hodgson's ability to link into the line and create an overlap. Hardaker hasn't quite developed that side of his game yet, hopefully he can learn off Webb while he is still around.

Yes, just as long as he doesn't try to pick up all of Webb's qualities at the same time.

The two near-identical second half tries scored down the right started from quick PTBs up the middle, and our defence being hopelessly outnumbered by Wire's left-side attack. At the start of the play when they scored their first in the corner in the second half we had 4 players covering the entire right side of the field against about 6 Wire players. All it needed was simple quick passing to draw in players, well executed and we were shafted. Nothing at all Watkins or anyone else individually out wide could have done except possibly go for the big hit/intercept by racing out of the line.

The problems out wide were structural and started with being soft and slow up the middle. Players allowing quick PTBs up the middle, causing defenders to be sucked in and then facing a good attack able to get the ball wide fast and with a plan as to who would do what.

In contrast we looked clueless.

McDermott deserves credit. Since 2010 (hammered in the cup final, out in the playoff semis) we have reached every final available to us, maintained league position with an ageing squad and top players not replaced, against other teams who have improved drastically. Since 2010, we have lost:

Scott Donald
Greg Eastwood
Danny Buderus
Keith Senior
Ali Lauitiiti
Matt Diskin
Luke Burgess

while it is arguable that Hardaker, Jones-Bishop and Watkins have come through, similarly high-line players (particularly in the forwards) have not been found. Yet team performance has actually improved. I think that speaks very much for the competency of our coach with the resources at his disposal.

This is a perfect summary of my own thoughts.

You could argue that the players lost of recent years counted against the coach and his efforts to move the team forward this year. However, the results (and not just on Saturday) have not shown the team to be equal to the sum of the parts and a truly great coach should be getting more than that.

I may be wrong but, I feel that BM is not capable fo taking this team back to the top.

Bang on... nail on the head.

The structure Warrington had on defence and attack was far far better than ours.

Warrington looked much better in the forwards, Peacock was the only Rhinos forward to make any yards.

I agree with the comments about structure on attack and defence. On attack, we always tried to set up to strike on the left, barely trying the right. Whilst Hall is our top try scorer over the past few seasons and most players pass naturally to the left, we have probably more threat, and certainly more pace on the right.

As for the comment about forwards not making ground, certainly that is true. However, having watched the game again I think a big part of the fault lies with the poor service from dummy half where Burrow and sometimes Lunt would almost always pick up the ball and take one, or sometimes two, steps before passing. This gave the Warrington defence ample time to move up. We need a proper hooker - Burrow isn't one and Lunt is no better than McShane (less good, in my opinion).

I've always believed the head-coach to be the most important position within the club from a playing point of view. It's also an appointment that is not restrained by any cap or quota implications. The standard of coaches out there are hugely variable - IMO so any attempt to find a cheap option will ultimately prove to be a damaging false economy. The right man seemingly able to improve individual performance levels and in turn team performances that are beyond the individual capabilities of the players at his disposal but the wrong man at the helm can equally have the opposite effect. There is also the question of consistency and having an occassional good day only highlights a general failure the rest of the time.

You also have to take the players with you and I think you will if you earn their respect and they can see your methods are working come game-day. I think the players can spot a dud when they see one though and start to go their own way and attempt hero plays because the neccessary structures either aren't there or aren't enforced.

Good post TVOC some very fair and good points.

This is correct, but it's worth pointing out that the route to the two CC Finals have involved comfortable home draws against whipping boy SL rabble teams. When it counted in the CC Finals themselves against superior opposition, they were found wanting. The route to winning the GF last year also involved easy fixtures against two whipping SL boy rabble teams. To McDermott's credit, Leeds won the tough games that counted... Warrington away, St Helens in the GF and the win in the WCC against Manly. All the rest has been dross for the most part.


This is incorrect because prior to McDermott's arrival as coach, Leeds were an established Top 4 club on the regular season ladder. This is no longer the case as finishing in the Top 4 is now a struggle for them.


Correct.


Disagree. Warrington have arguably improved drastically in recent years but that's from a position of heavy investment in the squad from a position of being one of the rabble SL teams. Wigan improved under McGuire but have since stalled, St Helens and Leeds have declined sharply over the past couple of seasons. The rest aren't worth talking about... they are pitiful opposition for the most part and not serious contenders.


Has it? Results and performances during the regular season during McDermott's tenure suggest this is not the case, particularly against the top SL clubs - one win, one draw and ten defeats. However, I do think he's taken over at a time when the squad was already in decline and he hasn't benefited from the luxury of any serious investment in the squad. The CEO appears somewhat reluctant to invest in the squad but this policy may well change dramatically should Leeds fail miserably in the play-offs and season ticket sales next year suffer accordingly.

I wouldn't put Wigan at Huddersfield in this year's CC Semi-Final in that category although I note your later comment that you see Wigan stalling post Maguire.

I think they've missed Richards and Leuluai when injured this year but if they are both available for the play-offs I'd still expect to see them contest the GF with Warrington.

It really, really wasn't.

As usual tvoc, spot on.

It's always worth pointing out.