True but I think given the squad we have, a correct move. Play to you strengths and looking at our (McDermott's) strongest 17 then their key attributes are experience and leadership and game management. So winning games like how we did at Wembley, whilst not exciting is the correct way to go with the given line-up we have. Like a player adapting his game, Ryan Giggs was a flying winger down the left in the 90's running at and past defenders, in his last few years he was a central midfield guy controlling the tempo and possession of his team around him.

Agree about game management but there is no substitute for ability and you have to question whether this team still has the ability i.e. the ability to perform the moves at pace - I am not sure that is the case anymore.

Defensively last season was the easiest of any for a side to defend, the quality of the attack in the league as a whole was woeful. I don't read as much into that as you do.

What is more important is the team's inability to beat the top sides especially at the back end of the year. This will be vital given the revised structure. Leeds didn't beat any of the top six sides after May - with an ageing side performance is likely to drop off towards the back end of the season especially if McDermott continues to flog the older players as he has in the past.

Looking at the initial squad it looks like McDermott is going to continue with the tried and tested injuries apart it hard to see how the younger players will get a look in - if Delanney was fit Stevie Ward would not even make the 19 let alone the likes of Mulheron, Goulding, Ward, Mitchell etc,

It should be an interesting year - I can't see a scenario where they make the top four - too many stronger teams. My view, a soft draw in the CC will be their best chance of silverware.

I'm not sure I agree it's a game plan that suits the players we have to be honest. We lack punch and pace in the middle so surely getting the ball to our quicker players out wide and offloading the ball more to create more broken play for our quicker players to exploit would be more effective given the players we have in the side. I think McDermott recognises this to some degree, which is why he's brought in Cuthbertson.

Even if we go with the "easiest to defend" idea. They still were the best in terms of points conceded......and if it was the easiest then what does that say about the likes of Hudds and Catalans who managed to concede over 200/250 points more?



Wasn't it because he didn't flog them in games against Bradford and London that we threw away the LLS?

I actually think people are reading too much into that last run of games. Silly red cards cost us wins vs Saints and Cas. Hull was a dead rubber where we couldn't move from 6th. London and Bradford we rested key players for the cup and Catalans all we needed was one caught pass from Briscoe to progress. Those things are much easier to sort than the likes of Hudds, Catalans, Cas learning how to cope and hang with the big boys when the big teams know they don't have room for error and will be pushing harder in the league.



Of course Ward would make the 19 ATM even if Delaney was there. His selection to start the Bradford friendly whilst he along with the obvious starters for the HKR game got to sit out the Doncaster one (where Achurch and Walters were picked) clearly show he's ahead of them at the moment.

I agree whilst everyone is fit the team sheet will read very similar to last year. But how likely is it that everyone is fit? Isn't part of the concern about the older guys to do with that they're more likely to picks up injuries? Then who next to come in? Bailey? Kirke? Clarkson? No.



It should be indeed, whether or not it's a successful one remains to be seen. It'll probably will be more interesting than years we have won something just in regards of seeing where we're heading. It'll probably see some interesting developments throughout the year on the transfer front too.

I admit I can see a scenario where we don't make the top 4......but I can also see a scenario where other clubs like Hudds and Catalans don't either and we do.

We don't really have that many quick players though in reality. Hall especially and to a letter extent Briscoe have games and styles based on being powerful and not lightening quick (although Briscoe isn't a slouch). Watkins and Moon would do better with quicker ball but the pace of the players inside doesn't allow for that. Those two probably don't suit the rest of the team, how the rest of the team goes we'd be just as ok if not better having the likes of some Senior/Ablett types in centre.

Even you have to admit Catalans have a much better side this year than last and Leeds are at best level with where they are last year. Leeds only just beat Catalans at home thanks to a brain explosion in the last minute and weren't good enough when it really mattered. Both games saw Catalans travelling!! The point you still will not address is Leeds didn't beat a top 6 side from May onwards in SL.

The reason McDermott thought he needed to rest them was because of the flogging he had already given them - the Saints game when Moon got sent off showed his true colours when he left two youngsters on the bench despite being down to 12.

On injuries - Delanney is injured now no youngsters how likely is it that we will have 2/3 forwards out at the same time, I would say unlikely.

If Delanney is fit back row is JJB, Ablett and Cuthbertson bench is two props possibly three against the bigger sides and a rotating hooker if its two props a rotating hooker and Sutcliffe how does Ward fit into that?

Yeah and we thrashed them last year too. That game saw us travelling!!

Yes they did do us in the playoffs, but we were dreadful and we still almost beat them barring that dropped pass. In the league game we were missing a load of players like Hardaker, Sinfield, Burrow, Leuluai, JJB, Kirke, Clarkson.



They did in the CC but apparently playing top 6 sides in knockout games doesn't count just like having the best defence over a whole season is apparently not important.

Other chances to beat a top 6 side from May onwards? Again silly red cards cost us vs Cas and Saints and we got pipped by Hudds when we had several guys missing including Hardaker, McGuire, Burrow, Aiton, JJB, Ablett, Achurch



Or because he knew it could well be their last chance to win the CC and didn't want them picking up a knock the week before.



Yet happened last year as I pointed out above with the guys missing for the Catalans and Hudds games. What about the Wakey game when we had no Hardaker, Sinfield, Burrow, Leuluai, JJB, Ablett, Kirke, Clarkson, Achurch.

So how likely is it to have 2/3 forwards plus some other guys out missing at the same time? I, and pretty much anybody who follows SL would say very likely as the year goes on. How do you think Minchella, Walters, Foster, Mulhern got debuts in the first place.



A three prop bench? With our options? How do we achieve that? Singleton, Yates and Mulhern?



He may not and it could be a battle to make the 17 at times but I don't think Sutcliffe is guaranteed to make the bench if Ward is playing well. He was very hit and miss last season especially around the CC time where Sutcliffe got the last bench spot.

However you said Ward wouldn't make the 19? Looking at our 24 man squad, which is realistically 22 man squad when you consider Keinhorst and R.Ward will only play if injuries in their positions and also the young like Walters and Minchella who you said McDermott won't want to pick then how does Ward not make the 19 most weeks?

With you there is always some excuse as to why they didn't perform in games:

Injuries, no team had more injuries to key players for longer periods than Saints yet they still managed to finish top of the league and win the competition. You make no allowance for injuries to key players in other sides contributing to Leeds winning games.

Sendings Off - As Widnes showed on Thursday a sending off doesn't have to result in a defeat and against Saints if McDermott had rotated his bench better given the injury-hit make up of their side Leeds should still have won.

CC - the root of all Leeds' problems in SL last year if only they hadn't won that they would have won the GF.

Defence - they attack doesn't need to be unto much because the defence was excellent - the lack of attack is one of the reasons we failed to win games we should have, once you go behind you haven't got the plays and mindset to reverse the position. In terms of points scored Leeds were seventh over 100 points behind all the teams above them in the table - perhaps this had a greater influence on where they finished in the table than their points against?

Sometime you just have to admit they weren't good enough. Sixth was a fair reflection of how well Leeds played last year.

On Ward I said he would not make the 17 not that he would not make the 19. If Leeds are at full strength he will not make the 17 no way he is going to get selected ahead of JJB/Ablett and Delanney. Against the bigger sides either Delanney or JJB will used as prop or Achurch will play. My point is Ward has been the best young player in pre-season yet McDermott would have picked Delanney ahead of him if fit without any pre-season games. What chance have the other youngsters got of ever establishing themselves when you have a coach with McDermott's mentality. Golding is another very good in pre-season but he isn't going to get selected ahead of Hardaker, who played terribly in the one pre-season game he attended.

Sutcliffe has to play he is our only up and coming half back - for the good of the longer term he has gain game experience unless McDermott has other ideas.

Mr Paradise are you seriously suggesting that because Golding played well in a couple of pre-season games he should be picked ahead of Hardaker?

What I am saying is how do kids get a chance to break into the first team? Are injuries their only chance? What more can Golding do to get a chance of playing in the first team? wait until Hardaker has another brain explosion or gets injured or signs for Wigan? With this coach no matter how well Golding plays in the limited opportunities he gets he has zero chance of getting selected i.e. the coach picks on reputation/loyalty and not on form. Could the likes of Mulhern contributed less than Kirke or Bailey? unlikely but Mulhern played 3 times, Kirke 18 times and Bailey 21 times that is this coach's mentality.

So you are saying he should be picked ahead of Hardaker?

I would be happy with that, Hull KR are not St Helens so it should be a good game for a youngster to start. Wigan don't have these scruples about young players I can see McDermott's reticence but sadly that reticence isn't around form. I am not as big a Hardaker fan as many on here so I would not go into a decline like many on here if he weren't selected. Golding is a real prospect, how does he develop, Sinfield, Burrow, McGuire, JJB etc didn't need stints in lower league football to emerge they learned their trade in the first team. I suspect Hardaker will be off at the end of this season so if he plays all year you have lost a year's development in Golding.

Not excuses but highlighting why it's erroneous to point at some games at the end of the year and say that's what the future holds for this team for the following year when we aren't going to be playing with 12 men for 60 mins every week or resting a load of starters or playing dead rubbers like the Hull game.



Possibly, possibly not. Do think we'd have got the LLS without the cup distraction. Answer these 2 simple question with only a YES or NO.

If Leeds got knocked out of the CC back in April to Saints then do you think we'd have gone on that 6 game losing streak at the end of the year?

If Saints beat us in the cup and went on to Wembley do you think they'd have won the LLS?

I think I know what 98% of people would answer to those questions.



Oh, I and everyone on here agree the attack needs to improve. My original point was no one was really mentioning the defence, which IF it can perform similarly to last year gives us a strong chance to make the top 4. Would you not agree if we are around the fewest points conceders again then we have a good CHANCE of making the 4?



Page 3 you wrote....



So seems you did say that.



Yes and last season Ward missed all of pre-season and the season opener yet came off the bench after not playing for around 9 months and played quite a lot of minutes vs Warrington in Round 2 and then started the next 3 games at 2nd row vs Catalans, Hudds and Widnes so he got the same rub of the green you're now saying he'll suffer from. And whilst the likes of Singleton, Achurch, McShane, Hood, Clarkson, Moore etc. have all suffered from McDermott's 5 mins or less usage of them off the bench, the same can't really be said of Ward. When he's been named a sub he always usually gotten good minutes from what I recall.



It is going to be tough but even Shaun Wane said last week that because of the new structure he isn't going to be picking young players as much now as he can't afford to so it's going to happen across the board more.



I hope Ward makes the bench over Sutcliffe. When Sutcliffe was coming off the bench was he really playing halfback? No so wasted really. If Sutcliffe makes the bench it should be in place of Aiton with him coming on for Burrow and Sinfield switching to 9.

Jesus, we've not even played the 1st game of the season and people are already on the coach's back for not dropping SL's best fullback to make way for a kid who had good games against 2nd division opposition in pre-season friendlies. This place never ceases to amaze me

They are now on his back

Expectations getting adjusted in a downward direction slightly after 1st half? Or are we just ring rusty?

The tackling bags will be out this week!

Looks like it was rust. On expectation, what does Huddersfield getting niled at home to Hull do for people's expectation of us not making the top 4?

Dunno. Not many people in the predictions thread had Huddersfield in the top 4 anyway. Catalans were a much more common choice.

and cas losing to wakey

Cas are a poor side without Clark - their half backs/hooker are poor can't see them making the 8.

BM tends to generally be very conservative when it comes to selections. The team selected for KR is about as conservative as could be - especially JJB at prop instead of Yates/Mulhern. In fact if there was one area our ex-prop seems to be stuck in a rut its the whole front row.

Oddly enough though BM also made the weirdest/bravest selection I can remember when he picked Keinhorst for the CC final a few years back.

In terms of blooding players, putting Burrow on the bench means there will rarely be a spot for any back, unless its a big unit like Sutcliffe who can play in the forwards. So other than that its injuries.

Just on Burrow, when was the last time he really changed a big game coming off the bench? Was it the 2012 GF?

In all fairness he is rarely used as the interchange hooker especially in regular season.the play off series of 2011 and 12 were the only times he was regularly used that way and shock horror..we won both.

He wasn't in 2012. He started at Wigan in Playoffs in 2012 at 7 because McGuire got suspended for a high shot in the Catalans game and he started hooker in the GF with Lunt coming on mid way thru the match (and not even for Burrow, so he stayed on the 80)

I tipped us to squeeze into the top 4. Any result between the two perennial underachievers of Hudds and Hull is unlikely to be of much significance but were either of those teams to surprise themselves by actually putting in some performances that count then either could displace us from that four.