No he and Leuluai went off around the 20 minute mark for Bailey and Achurch (shouldn't be used at prop ffs) but came on about 7/8 mins later. We conceded our first try in that time.

That double substitution was bizarre in that we were defending, and as Bailey ran on Catalans made a break through a defence with 1 replacement (possibly 2) out of position.

It was strange in terms that I can't recall us subbing both props off around the same time. Usually if Peacock goes off it's around the 30 mins mark, around 10 mins after Leuluai (who often is the one coming back on for Peacock) goes off.

At least 1 of those players are leaving, the rest will be at least as good as this year + Cuthbertson who should be a huge addition.
Most of the other players will improve*

*kirke, bailey, clarkson, aiton not included obvs.

Gaz Ellis would have been a cracking signing for your lot, but he chose the black & whites.

This has been a great side but it has reached the limits of its physical and mental capabilities. Other sides no longer fear them and they have lost the ability to impose themselves against the top sides and they can't be bothered to turn up against the weaker ones anymore.

Last night not one key player - Peacock, McGuire, Sinfield, Burrow, JJB had a decent game they simply weren't able to lift themselves to the required standard.

The concern has to be the lack of genuine quality coming through the academy in these key positions plus the quality of the coaching throughout the club. GH must take some heat for the lack of solid succession planning for these key positions.

Changes are required but it is not going to happen anytime soon - with key players getting older standards are likely to only go one way. It will be difficult for Leeds to make the top 4 next year you could easily see a scenario where they don't even make the 8.

They will make the 8 but not the 4. Not with this side. I agree about coaching and youngsters too.

I think they can still make the 4, but I dont think they would win the final.

I would not be so sure, it depends how another season catches up on these players - the squad needs freshening up but I don't see GH dipping into his pocket nor do I see the quality of player out there to sign.

The form in the second half of the season has been worrying - yes the CC was a distraction but that alone cannot explain the dramatic fall off in form.

And after the shambles of the last two season I bet he regrets that decision big time

I think Leeds are now descending into a lean period of dominancy.
Its looking like a season too far with the spine of the team, Sinfield, Burrows, Kylie, Peacock, McGuire, JJB thats a lot of experience needing replacing.
A couple of seasons in transition is around the corner and your chairmen will no doubt be aware of it.

Time for GH to get his cheque book out!
And he needs to look further than Australia, who simply pay too well to let their top players go.
Better meet a few Brits who are coming to the boil and retire the old warhorses.
Tanks will always beat cavalry as we all know...

Time for change at the top. Inability to score points has meant that even games we have dominated in every other area have been tight. We can't put teams away. We've had glimpses of what our attack could look like when it clicks but this season ultimately confirms that McD is unable to effectively coach this area of the game.

We also desperately need a quality 9. It's the most important attacking position in the modern game and what we have in that position isn't anywhere near good enough.

I'd agree...but a theatening at the line half back wouldn't go amiss either.

The inability to score points is the salient fact; it's such a shame when considering the wonderful defence and especially the scrambling defence shown this season.

brierley would be a top signing but has hetherington got the balls to lose one of the half backs, has he got the nerve to spend the money and would BM play him anyway?

It's hardly been a disaster of a season.

CC win.

That would be a good if not great year in most teams books and winning them both when they are at the same end of the season has always been a tough challenge.

Look how Cas have dropped off in form.

I said when Leeds knocked us out, that it would be tough for them to finish near the top and that it would help us when we played you again.

I did not foresee us losing all our play makers, but that aside, the point was, whoever got to the CC final was going to struggle for league and playoff form.

At Saints most fans are happy given our players with the LLS and anything else is a bonus.

Wigan are probably now firm favourites for the GF and lets face it anyone can knock on and drop a ball. I always dispair how the last mistake is seen as the crucial mistake.

Hall dropped it off a kick, giving 80 meters away, is that not just as crucial?

....you're right (that was awful) but human nature being what it is it is poor old Briscoe's faux pas that will be remembered for a very long time. Hall's will be forgotten. Briscoe has been many a supporter's scapegoat for 2014, which doesn't help.

I don't think the coach is the major factor by any means.
We're playing with only 2 props and have no impact off the bench.
I've often defended Bailey and Kirke in the past but they haven't stepped up to the mark to take over some of the workload (both quantity and quality) from Peacock and Leuluai.

I firmly believe our problems stem from the forwards. We aren't getting beaten in the backs, it's slow ptb's and fast ptb's for the opposition that's beating us. We need some size and quality in the forwards to change that around. Made even more important with the impending retirement of our 2 props.

Personally, unless Bailey really steps up next season, I think we need at least another 2 props, in addition to Cuthbertson, to be signed from outside over the next 2 seasons. And I'd release Bailey & Kirke.

At hooker, I think Aiton will be a perfectly good hooker with more game time. Which he'll get when one of McGuire, Burrow, Sinfield retires.

The only other issue is the halves. I think the McGuire, Burrow, Sinfield combination still works. I think the forwards are the main reason for our poor attack.
But we've still got the halves to replace in a relatively short time frame. A bit less straightforward, it depends a lot on Sutcliffe's development. IF he develops into a good half then we still need 1 other. I think Moon is capable of playing 6 but that obviously leaves a gap at centre. So we may need at least 1 signing at halfback or centre.

Some quality signings needed over the next 2-3 years. However I know it's not as easy as that, the right players have to be available.

There's no attacking threat in the halves. Ever noticed how we never really create overlaps? Yet wigan create them nearly every set when they attack. Defence can set up as if the halves will pass the ball, because they don't have a running threat anymore. How many times is there gaps and half gaps but mcguire and sinfield always never quite get through. Green and smith are through them.

We don't have the forward's in motion and structure as much either but the main issue is the halves.

But we've had a younger, quicker guy in Sutcliffe play in the halves quite a bit and he hasn't shone. Warrington had some very strong years recently with that speed merchant Briers at 6 so I never buy this "halves need speed" thing. Granted it's a more than usual attribute to have but if there isn't enough happening off the ball to put doubt in a defenders mind then it doesn't matter how much speed they have.

The problem we have in the forwards in the opposition 20m.....apart from Ablett do any of them poise a threat? Not really. Peacock as warrior like as he is taking carry after carry gets his hands on the ball in the opposition 10m far too much for my liking as he kills momentum usually when he does.

Note some of the scores Sinfield created last year for England in the World Cup. The one for Burgess against NZ, the one for Westwood vs Fiji, both came due to good support and good lines run by forwards on the end.

On the left we have Ablett - Moon - Hall, all very promising but too often it's 3 vs 3 as not enough has happened to suck defenders in. One thing I'd like to see is Hardaker get involved more on the left side of attack, seems to pop up there very rarely whereas he's always on the right side.

The main issue for me is structure. Wigan play to a rigid structure and utilise dummy runners. All of there players know what they should be doing and when. In contrast, we play an off-the-cuff type of play with a hooker who half the time doesn't know what he's doing let alone the rest of the team. Wigan create overlaps with structure.

Overlaps are generally created by support runs from forwards, we don't have that. In my view, that's because our forwards on the pitch are having to play with only 2 props and in defence are desperately making last ditch tackles instead of getting 2/3 men in quickly and dominating the tackle. So our forwards are knackered when we have the ball.

Of course our halves have slowed down, but I still don't think they're a major issue. I think, in the games where our forwards dominate, our halves prove their worth. Either way they'll only be around another couple of seasons and will need replacing either way.

Wigan's tactic works because they only have 1 tactic. Run hard, tackle hard, do out the back play followed by out the back play until a try is scored.
Sometimes it works sometimes it doesn't.
I also find it very boring and nowhere near as good as our play was early in the season.

Get some forwards in to dominate the tackles, our backs and halves, slow as they might be (though Burrow's not slow), will do fine.

But we had a chunk of possession early doors, also did vs Wire in the Cup semi and didn't come away with the points our field position warranted. So it's not a fatigue issue.

Halves don't necessarily need pace, but they do need fast accurate possession to be effective. Leeds' PTB is pedestrian and has been for years especially from JP, Kylie and Delaney. I'd also add that too often our halves are standing still when they receive the ball making them more predictable. One thing I like about Blake Green is that even though he isn't lighting quick, he always receives the ball at pace which creates doubt in the opposition defence because they don't know if he will run or pass.

So even though our halves aren't fantastic they're still very good. If our forwards were able to punch more holes we'd see instant improvement from them. One player whom think would really strengthen Leeds is Elliot Whithead.

the decision not to retain kyle amor looks better by the week.......................