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| Quote ="MjM"If you can't get your head around these proposals then you probably shouldn't be allowed out on your own.
The new system addresses various Rugby League specific problems. They aren't problems which generally affect Leeds and Wigan but the wider game has been suffering without a clearer pathway for smaller clubs to progress, or at least dream of progressing. So why not put in place a system whilst also trying to smooth the process rather than just dumping them in the top flight and watching them sink or swim. Like it or not, SL can't just follow the policy of casting adrift the smaller teams.
Given how much, Pie Eaters especially, have been moaning in the past 16 months about meaningless games, a switch which makes many more games much more meaningful is good news. I think it will be exciting and successful.'"
How does this address the problems in RL? the two biggest of which are:
1. Lack of participation
2. Lack of finance in the game.
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| Quote ="Sal Paradise"How does this address the problems in RL? the two biggest of which are:
1. Lack of participation
2. Lack of finance in the game.'" It's not supposed to. Improving the competition structure isn't supposed to be the solution to all of RL's challenges. Participation levels will not vary significantly according to the structure being used by the professional teams.
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| Quote ="craigizzard"Season tickets should be sold as 14 tickets (11 from the "regular" season and 3 after the split). You might get one bonus game free on top of that depending on your regular season finish. Not that complicated if approached that way.'"
Whilst a free game might seem like a bonus to you, I'm sure it doesn't seem like a bonus to clubs
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| Quote ="SmokeyTA"Whilst a free game might seem like a bonus to you, I'm sure it doesn't seem like a bonus to clubs'"
The bonus for the clubs is they get 14 (or 15) home games instead of the current 13.
It's not as if the clubs hosting an extra game are going to lose money doing so, even if season tickets effectively get in free for that. There are enough away fans/walk-ups/bar & merchandise sales to more than cover overheads.
There are plenty of problems with the restructure, but the 14/15 game season ticket issue isn't one of them
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| Emperor [delPalpatine[/del Hetherington always gets his way, Karth Vader had the deciding vote.
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| Quote ="cheekydiddles"So IF we win it from 7th surely even the Wigan fans couldn't grumble this time
'"
Given it'll be a Top 4 play-off format (1 v 4, 2 v 3), I'd be astonished if anyone won it from 7th.
Or even 5th!
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| Quote ="Wire Yed"Emperor [delPalpatine[/del Hetherington always gets his way, Karth Vader had the deciding vote.'"
That's just one way you get to [deljames[/del rule.
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| Quote ="William Eve"Very simple structure and very nicely summarised.
Not complicated at all unless there's an agenda in play and/or someone is just patently too stupid to understand.
Lovely jubbly, exciting times ahead
'"
Buying a season ticket, Mr Eve?
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| Wouldn't it make sense if the 7 games were tied in with magic weekend? Either by having the magic weekend in the last 7 games, or by the team which is at 'home' in the magic weekend getting the Extra home game in the 8s section
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| Quote ="Clearwing"Buying a season ticket, Mr Eve?
'"
Nope, because I'm a fan of the game rather than a one-club supporter.
Anyhow, the last time I checked, Super League in 2014 remained a 14 team, top 8 play-off farce, therefore there's still one more season of meaningless regular season SL fixtures which do not interest me in the slightest.
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| Quote ="William Eve"Nope, because I'm a fan of the game rather than a one-club supporter.
Anyhow, the last time I checked, Super League in 2014 remained a 14 team, top 8 play-off farce, therefore there's still one more season of meaningless regular season SL fixtures which do not interest me in the slightest.'"
I meant for 2015 but fair comment.
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| Quote ="William Eve"Given it'll be a Top 4 play-off format (1 v 4, 2 v 3), I'd be astonished if anyone won it from 7th.
Or even 5th!
'"
You know what I was saying....7th after the 'regular qualifying' season to then make the top 4 shoot out for Old Trafford
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| Quote ="MjM"It's not supposed to. Improving the competition structure isn't supposed to be the solution to all of RL's challenges. Participation levels will not vary significantly according to the structure being used by the professional teams.'"
So exactly which challenges does it solve?
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| Quote ="Sal Paradise"So exactly which challenges does it solve?'"
I would say that it:
makes the season more competitive - more games that mean something.
Gives us a decent play-off series
Provides a means to have P&R
Spreads more money to the lower leagues
Gives teams in the lower leagues something to aim at
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| Quote ="The Eagle"I would say that it:
makes the season more competitive - more games that mean something.
Gives us a decent play-off series
Provides a means to have P&R
Spreads more money to the lower leagues
Gives teams in the lower leagues something to aim at'"
It certainly gives a means to P&R.
It appears it might spread money to lower leagues, although nothing confirmed.
It does mean more games will be meaningful than we have now, throughout the regular weeks.
Not sure how it gives a decent play off series. A top four really isn't a series, it's two games for a wining team.
More importantly it places more games than we currently play on players already continually knackered, and continually moaning about. As it stands the split happens around the time of another competition reaching it's climax and a distraction. We already have a competition that is not 100% fair by the Magic Weekend round, the new proposals make the fairness element even worse when it comes to the final seven games.
Personally would have dropped the final seven rounds for the top eight, and just had the play offs. They will be irrelevant meaningless games for two or three of the teams anyway. At least that way the players wouldn't have an handicap when it came to end of season internationals.
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| Any changes to Dual registration. Dual reg for SL /Championship clubs could now become an issue.
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| Quote ="Gotcha"It certainly gives a means to P&R.
It appears it might spread money to lower leagues, although nothing confirmed.
It does mean more games will be meaningful than we have now, throughout the regular weeks.
Not sure how it gives a decent play off series. A top four really isn't a series, it's two games for a wining team.
More importantly it places more games than we currently play on players already continually knackered, and continually moaning about. As it stands the split happens around the time of another competition reaching it's climax and a distraction. We already have a competition that is not 100% fair by the Magic Weekend round, the new proposals make the fairness element even worse when it comes to the final seven games.
Personally would have dropped the final seven rounds for the top eight, and just had the play offs. They will be irrelevant meaningless games for two or three of the teams anyway. At least that way the players wouldn't have an handicap when it came to end of season internationals.'"
No can do regarding the last part. For financial reasons clubs won't want as few as 11 home games a years. This new system will see them with either 15 or 14 home games. That's a big difference to their finances.
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| Quote ="ThePrinter"No can do regarding the last part. For financial reasons clubs won't want as few as 11 home games a years. This new system will see them with either 15 or 14 home games. That's a big difference to their finances.'"
Don't dissagree, but that highlights exactly where the problems lie. Finances is number one, the product down the list. Those believing this is a monumental change in the right direction from a top level point of view are kidding themselves. From a lower level yes, top level no.
Yes, you may well see the first 10 rounds of the competition more meaningful than they would under the old system, but that will be offset by the meaningless fixtures at the end by 3 or 4 clubs. Possibly even worse, as by the 11th/12th round you will probably see at least two clubs already resigned to the bottom four finish and saving themselves for the play off format, therefore making their regular round fixtures meaningless again.
Where it will have a particular set back is on the development of youngsters into teams, as some won't take the risks, where they would have done previously, depending on when their easier games are.
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| Quote ="craigizzard"The bonus for the clubs is they get 14 (or 15) home games instead of the current 13.
It's not as if the clubs hosting an extra game are going to lose money doing so, even if season tickets effectively get in free for that. There are enough away fans/walk-ups/bar & merchandise sales to more than cover overheads.
There are plenty of problems with the restructure, but the 14/15 game season ticket issue isn't one of them'"
That’s a fairly bold claim, there are pretty big match day costs and overheads, its pretty presumptuous to think there isn’t a break-even point simply on match day revenue versus costs. Leeds have about 10k season ticket holders and an average of about 15k. That would mean that another ‘free’ game would actually be a game where Leeds needed to open Headingly and have match day overheads and costs to cater for a 15k attendance, but actually only the ticket income from 5k fans. I wouldn’t be surprised to see a match like that make a loss.
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| Quote ="rhinoms"Yet the "top 8" system in the SL STILL rewards teams with play off games even though the 7th and 8th placed teams will lose more games than they win!
Also the National team coaches ,players etc have been screaming out for reduced number of fixtures yet after 22 rds there's a minimum of 7 more games then the semi's and GF no?
Also as AG pointed out the bottom 4 SL teams have a completely different SC and overseas quota how does that make it a fair play off between the middle 8?'"
Coming at this as a SL newbie and a football fan for 20+ years (and recently experienced relegation with my team) the idea is / will be that it is the worst of the SL v the best of the Championship. If the worst of the SL end up coming out on top v the best of the Champ, then they stay in the SL and it suggests the league would be weaker with the Champ teams.
If the Champ teams finish above the SL teams, that suggests they are better and thus (in theory) the league will be stronger next time. The relegated SL team will have seen they are worse than the best Champ teams and thus what they need to improve / develop to come in the top 4 of the Champ and then beat the (now SL) former Champ teams (or whoever else ends up bottom 4 in the SL the next year).
I appreciate premier league / championship football and SL / Champ rugby league are worlds apart in terms of money, coverage and support - but the likes of London, Widnes, Wakey and others have been poor with little ability to improve (due to finances, bad luck, management or whatever) but ultimately remain in the SL year after year. Conversely, teams consistently doing well in Champ have their progression halted as they can't go any further.
This happened a few years ago to my non-league home-town football team - they walked their league easily a couple of years consecutively but then couldn't go up because of not meeting ground requirements. They then made effort to meet requirements, but then didn't do as well (for whatever reason) and then their owner pulled out and they had no senior players. My point is at the time they were upwardly mobile, they could not progress any higher due to non-playing reasons. Players moved to other teams higher up the non-league ladder as it was the only way to play higher. The whole thing then went belly-up as the new sponsors pulled out days before the season so the club had lost the money it used to fund the staff.
The system will favour the four SL teams, but then the Champ teams (having won more than lost and presumably played well to be top 4) will have more momentum and belief and as i say, if they can't beat the worst of the SL at the end of good seasons, at least then they can hopefully identify what to improve and try again next year.
I know for some it could mean years of 'yo-yo-ing' between two leagues but the idea should be that each time they go up they improve a tiny bit more; then if they go back to Champ, they have a bit better team than when they last went up and so theoretically should come top-four and have a chance to go up again.
Rather than 8 good teams, 6 treading water and the however many are in the Champ unable to go up regardless of how amazing they are - you will end up with maybe 8 good teams still, maybe 8 teams across two leagues who are continually jostling to get better (whatever league they are in in any given year) and then 8 teams who are trying to put themselves in position to play against SL teams at the end of the year to see how far away they are from possibly challenging them for promotion to SL.
It should also mean a bit more money in / around the Champ as there becomes a point to it - even if Sky only showed Champ games after the split, it'd be more coverage (and consistently) than now. Hell, i know i would watch on if it was there to watch.
By no means will it solve things quickly and yeah, one or two may run the risk of winding up, but those teams are / have been treading water to stand still in SL.
It is possible that maybe i have got it totally wrong and am very naive / ignorant to the position RL finds itself in, in which case i expect to read some chastising comments!
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| So the new system might well mean - Wigan v Leeds twice in regular season then maybe once at the Magic Weekend. We could easily meet in the cup then as the league is cut to eight we meet again. Then again in the playoffs. That's six games - in just one season - with at least 4 games most seasons. To me diluting the product in this way isn't the way to improve the product. Attendances will suffer as a consequence.
In 2011 Wigan played Saints 6 times (2 league/1 MW/1 CC/2 playoffs) and by the time the first playoff game was played at the DW the crowd was just 12,000 for a game that regularly pulls in 23,000.
Variety is the spice of life. I really don't want to see us play Leeds/Wire/Saints 4 or 5 times a season, and I don't believe that the RL public do either. This new system makes it more likely that we will see each other rather too regularly (much as I love you all!)
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| For a club like Leeds, this system works. For anyone else, it doesn't.
If you are relatively confident that you'll always be in the top eight, fantastic. The gap between you and the lower portion of the league increases every season. Whilst the top clubs have the intensity of playing each other, whilst they cream the chunk of the prize money, the commercial revenue and can retain and recruit the best players, the rest will get dragged further and further to the bottom by playing the lowest common denominator.
The Championship clubs wanted this because they want an opportunity at Super League. In five years time, we'll see the same clubs arguing that they can't break into the top eight because the likes of Wigan, Leeds, Warrington, St Helens, Huddersfield, Hull, Catalans and Salford are too far away from them and that "SL1" is effectively a closed shop.
It's time to stop letting the tail wag the dog.
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| Not the answer this for me but I'm up for seeing how it goes and will be quite interested to how it all unfolds. I think the only thing that's right with this is the reduced number of teams. It remains to be seen what else may be right with it furhter down the line.
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| Quote ="bramleyrhino"For a club like Leeds, this system works.
If you are relatively confident that you'll always be in the top eight, fantastic. The gap between you and the lower portion of the league increases every season. Whilst the top clubs have the intensity of playing each other, whilst they cream the chunk of the prize money, the commercial revenue and can retain and recruit the best players, the rest will get dragged further and further to the bottom by playing the lowest common denominator.
The Championship clubs wanted this because they want an opportunity at Super League. In five years time, we'll see the same clubs arguing that they can't break into the top eight because the likes of Wigan, Leeds, Warrington, St Helens, Huddersfield, Hull, Catalans and Salford are too far away from them and that "SL1" is effectively a closed shop.
It's time to stop letting the tail wag the dog.'"
This.
The Championship clubs won't be happy until they get a return to automatic P&R for the Championship winners. I expect that in another three years, after the same four teams have consistently finished in the bottom places in SL yet stayed in thanks to the playoffs, they'll be back bleating again about how the system is stacked against them.
If they devoted as much time to trying to improve themselves as they do bitching about how everything is stacked against them, there would be more of a case for automatic P&R. Yet they remain too blind to see it.
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| Quote ="bramleyrhino"For a club like Leeds, this system works. For anyone else, it doesn't.
If you are relatively confident that you'll always be in the top eight, fantastic. The gap between you and the lower portion of the league increases every season. Whilst the top clubs have the intensity of playing each other, whilst they cream the chunk of the prize money, the commercial revenue and can retain and recruit the best players, the rest will get dragged further and further to the bottom by playing the lowest common denominator.
The Championship clubs wanted this because they want an opportunity at Super League. In five years time, we'll see the same clubs arguing that they can't break into the top eight because the likes of Wigan, Leeds, Warrington, St Helens, Huddersfield, Hull, Catalans and Salford are too far away from them and that "SL1" is effectively a closed shop.
It's time to stop letting the tail wag the dog.'"
But this is not set in stone. Often (in a range of sports) there is at least one team or other that does better than people expect and gets 'among the big boys'. The 'rich' in RL aren't swimming in cash - no-one has any money. I'd argue that in the Premier League the gap between 'big boys' and 'the rest' is a lot bigger, but most years at least one of 'the rest' gets among them.
Look at it from the perspective of likely top eight teams - each year more that you come there, the more pressure the next to stay there. True, i think this will be a non-issue for a long while at least for the likes of Leeds, Wire and Wigan, but the more the whole system is weighted towards coming top, the more pressure for all - whatever position they are fighting for. Leeds, Wire and Wigan will be under more pressure to come top as later down the line it puts them in a stronger position. Conversely, it puts them under more pressure not to slip and finish say 5th or 6th one year as they will be more up against it. Those who will currently be treading water in 9th or 10th have some impetus - they need to strive for 8th as it means they don't then have to do a mini-league to stay in the SL. Sure, you may get spanked every week as you play the 7 above you but alternatively, there is no danger of relegation and it is a chance to play free of fear (and consequence, almost) against the top teams. Who knows, you may shock a few and end up having a chance of making the truncated playoffs.
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