The ref was terrible and should not have the right to decide we cannot contest for possession at the breakdown. He penalised BOD for legally contesting the ball when he should have penalised them for not releasing the ball. Too many of his other decisions were wrong too which could well have given them a win.

Having said that the Lions were not at their best with Phillips having a stinker and IMO we changed the front row far too early. We will need to improve the lineout for next week too. Bowe looks set to return and I'm not convinced Warburton is our best 7 as he doesn't look fully match fit yet.. We should also cut down on box kicking away possession.

I watch a lot and I coach. I'd agree about wanting a free flowing game, but you are allowed to compete for the ball at the tackle - if you don't have that competition you might as well play rugby league (no problem with that - but hey it's the way it is). The penalties awarded against O'Driscoll in particular were just incorrect, the second one (when BOD asked the ref to look at the big screen) he was first man there and on his feet - he's allowed under the laws to compete for the ball with his hands until the ref calls ruck. There is no difference between hemispheres, they usually punish the attacker for not releasing - even in the southern hemisphere - and for the entire tour the Lions have been able to compete like this with different officials.
Also, if this ref really wanted a free flowing game he should have come down like a ton of bricks on something like, say, deliberate killing of the ball near the try line? Yet in the first half he didn't, twice. The Lions were driving a maul and it was as certain a try as you could ask for 3 yards out and the Australian 7 came in round the side and scythed it down - two offences for the price of one. He didn't even penalise it, after North didn't get the ball down a couple of phases later he gave a penalty for another offside to the Lions. The offence at the ruck was a definite yellow card and for me a definite penalty try. Then just before half time the Lions were on the Aussie line again and through came four Australians all off their feet over the ball and cynically killed it and the attack. Another definite yellow card ignored. The ref was frankly diabolical. He allowed the Australians to collapse their own scrum and still play on - you can't play on after a scrum collapses, he allowed them to hit early at the scrum every time and only the Lions were penalised. A complete disgrace and thank Christ we don't see him again.

Rhinoms is correct, England got him for the first of their games against Argentina and he slaughtered us in the second half and killed the game completely.

Mostly agree. I would probably be tempted to give Bowe a run though, Cuthbert has looked a little lost all tour. He did finish his try well but his work rate is not awesome and he did benefit from the early disruption to the Aussie midfield as that hampered their wide game. I suspect he would have been attacked a lot. O'Connor is simply not an international 10 and didn't have the nouse to target Cuthbert.
I would bring Roberts in but actually I'd drop Davies. I thought BOD was by far the better of the two today and there is a huge emotional thing for BOD next week, he'll play out of his skin.

The rest? Back row looks awful, Tom Croft went missing, Heaslip hasn't been in great form most of the season and it shows (what a shame Ben Morgan got injured early in the 6 Nations, he's carried the ball like a monster on the England tour - exactly what the Lions need), and I'm afraid the captain is showing the form that got him dropped at the start of the season. Mike Phillips had the worst game I've ever seen from him - and I have always liked him as a player. Luckily Sexton did everything right, some delightful short kicks and simple ball distribution. Looked calm and collected. Front 5 were awesome also.

Coach may not make any changes though and have Roberts on the bench - Bowe may appear in the 3rd test win or lose next week.

Good points DHM i think Gatland dropped a clanger not taking Robshaw irrespective of what happend in Cardiff and agree re-Morgan looks to me like we've may have another Dallaglio or even better on our hands.
I expected better from Phillips because i personally think he's the best 9 we have when on form.
Agree re-front 5 especially Wyn-Jones.
I was very impressed with the young England team in Argentina looks to be a lot of good prospects especially Burns and the younger Vunipolo.

A bit like every other person with a job - if someone offered you a 200% pay increase you would off like a shot so way do you think RL players should be any different?

Typical small-minded northern RL thinking.

How good did Kyle Eastmond look? Not just his footwork but his passing was beautiful to watch, perfect. I've seen him play for Bath a few times this year and it's his passing that's impressed the most he doesn't try to do too much - but if you leave the gate open he's through and gone. The pace in that England team is frightening, Joe Launchberry and Ben Morgan were phenomenal in the pack and Freddy Burns has the complete game, great to see him get a chance. It was really great to see Jonny May get his first cap because he came through our minis section. He comes back every year and hands out trophies to our kids - top lad.

The Argies didn't lnow what had hit em when Eastmond scored and had no answers to Yarde's power and pace out wide either.
There's certainly much more depth and quality available to Lancaster than in recent years it will be interesting to see how many get into the squad for the Autumn tests and 6 nations fitness and form permitting.

So Folau has played League, AFL and now union. What's next in the ashes squad this winter?

Lancaster has said he sees Eastmond as an inside centre first and foremost because of his creative handling skills and already Yarde looks the business. Many of these young players are well know to Lancaster during his former role so exciting days ahead.

I wonder if Australia will move Folau to fullback next week where he could be a big danger to us. They will have to make some changes in their backs due to injuries and the failure of O'Connor at FH. While we need to work on our lineout and get to the breakdown quicker. So there could be changes to our back row.

Beale will come back in at full back for the Shackle Draggers next week. Wouldn't be surprised to see them shift Barnes back up to fly-half if he recovers from being hit by the cement truck that is Israel Folau, have O'Connor as a game breaking option on the bench.

Both Folau and North are good players. I think Folau has the edge in pace and footwork, but there's not much in it.

Folau has only played 14 games of union, and not on the wing before Saturday - he didn't even have a full pre-season as there was every chance he'd sign for the Eels (which was messed up by the NRL). Once North really got moving he was good, but he was stopped easily a lot due to the time it takes him to get moving. The defence in the line for his first try after he took the kick was dire.

BTW lets not have any of this 'North could make a SL winger' stuff, as though the rest of the outside backs wouldn't make it. History clearly shows that in all likelihood if the Lions threequarters moved to RL most/all of them would quickly be playing for GB. The lack of RU signings to plug gaps in GB/England's backline is only now starting to be addressed IMO. The threequarters Tony Smith had for GB a few years ago would have been walloped out of sight by their union counterparts, let alone Inglis and co.

Two things

1. I wasn't having a go

2. I don't mind Union so don't give me that

Be interesting to see what Folau will be like when he fully understands Union

Which team is GB these days?

I grant you they'd get in to the current Welsh and Irish RL sides but then again so would G1 ..... possibly.



You can't prove that and I would still doubt it even if you tried.

Jason Robinson had pretty much passed his sell by date in League before he joined the Union but absolutely ripped it up in that sport when he got there - despite Stuart Barnes' opinion. That doesn't say a lot to me for the quality of Union outside backs at the time. Eastmond is now earning some plaudits (according to this thread) and his value in League was pretty debatable. Difficult to judge as the requirements of the two codes are often quite different.

Games shouldn't be fre-flowing at the expense of the rules. Reffing of the rucks was appalling.

RU is also killing scrummaging at the moment.

Folau is a freak (in a nice way) athlete who appears to be good at any sport he turns his hand to. George North is almost as good physically but knows the game better.

Jason Robinson had pretty much passed his sell by date in League before he joined the Union but absolutely ripped it up in that sport when he got there - despite Stuart Barnes' opinion. That doesn't say a lot to me for the quality of Union outside backs at the time. Eastmond is now earning some plaudits (according to this thread) and his value in League was pretty debatable. Difficult to judge as the requirements of the two codes are often quite different.'"

He was well past 26 before he made his Union debut for Sale (after his full-time switch) and yes in my opinion he'd ceased being the threat he once was on a Rugby League field. Perhaps that's a relative judgement in his case and he was still earning his place at Wigan but his days of terrorising the Leeds defences were seemingly over.



Greenwood perhaps is worthy of inclusion in a discussion about quality outside backs but Dawson would have been a RL hooker and Wilkinson could tackle (when not injured) but possessed a passing game that made Rob Burrow look like John Holmes.

In purely physical terms, today's RU backs are a different animal to the ones Robinson played against. He was a phenomenal player in either code, but would probably struggle to make people look quite as sluggish on a modern day field in either sport. I suspect that the athleticism of other players in RL hadsimply caught him up a little (and he was still one of the best wingers in league, so 'past his sell by date' might over-state rumours of his demise a tad) rather than his own ability waning in his mid-20s.

Eastmond to be fair is earning no more plaudits in RU than he was in RL before he left. In both cases he was getting international call ups, but in both cases probably not quite first choice. In both codes he was/is a huge threat in attack, but had/has questions to answer defensively.

I still think RL is a touch ahead of RU in terms of handling skills, but the gulf has become a small gap, and the days of resting on laurels are gone. Players are still switching codes and going well, but it isn't as if a background of success in League automatically makes you a superstar in Union. For instance, I'm pretty confident (of course I can't prove it) that Joel Tomkins would be a fixture in the England RL side by now, but remains (for now at least) a little way down the pecking order in RU.

Mike catt, Ben Cohen, Josh Lewsey & Mike Tindall were all good backs playing for England at that time. I think your initial comment about the quality of Union backs at the time Robinson crossed codes was harsh.

Robinson appeared to very quickly become a dangerous attacker at International level in an alien sport after losing much of his ability to terrorise even SL defences, IMO. That was the context for the earlier Union back comment - harsh or not.

You haven't mentioned Jodie yet? Salfords very own wing wizard, you feeling ok?

I'm good thanks, just treated myself to a new aquarium so I've got something to look forward to at long last. I try not to mention Broughton unless prompted by others to do so. www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/ ... ep-3186588 a few of the current top clubs were circling but haven't heard anything further just recently.

I'm good thanks, just treated myself to a new aquarium so I've got something to look forward to at long last. I try not to mention Broughton unless prompted by others to do so. www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/ ... ep-3186588 a few of the current top clubs were circling but haven't heard anything further just recently.

This post doesn't say a lot to me about your judgement either. Robbo's best season for tries in League was 1996 I think with 24. His next best 3 years were his final 3 years in League with 23 tries in 2000, 19 in 1999 and 17 in 1998.

Eastmond's value was not debatable IMO. An excellent and outstanding talent who was troubled with injury before and after he joined Union. He looks a class act and could well remain in the England squad when their Lions return.



I am pretty sure he was nearer 26 than 27 when he made his debut for Sale Sharks and was about 22 when he played for Bath RU.

Not a "relative" judgement just a poor judgement. Didn't he win the Harry Sunderland Trophy in 1998 (just 2 years before switching to Union) against.....err Leeds I seem to remember. And as I said his 2nd best season for tries finished just before he switched codes



Not "harsh" just wrong. A unique rugby talent like Robinson had together with the speed that he retained made him lethal in either code.

There are no facts here just opinions.

As ever mine are offered without ever feeling the need to tell anybody their's are wrong.

Robinson was a fading force in League (for whatever reason) by the time he left and yet was able to make an almost immediate impression elsewhere. Whether that was through a change of environment, a new challenge or whatever I don't know but as a League player he'd clearly diminished IMO by the time he left.

The position of wing in Union v League is somewhat different, you have much more space in union to work with and as the defensive lines are usually more stretched in Union you can have more attacking options as a runner v a direct run in league.

Robinson was not past his best in my opinion, but his foot work and acceleration was easier for him to exploit in Union. For the comparison lets take Ryan Hall, in Union I think he would be a solid winger but also have a weakness for quicker and more agile (Robinson Style) wingers to atttack him. So to do a direct comparison is not really accurate in my opinion.