Scapegoat,give over.

So explain to me why that 40-20 was Vickery's fault and how he was "out of position"?

He was exactly where he should have been. Watkins was stood in the middle of the field, pretty much where he should have been.

It was a good kick, well placed and well executed. Just because Leeds seem to lack anyone with the vision or ability to execute 40-20s doesn't mean it has to be someone's fault defensively when they concede one.

Vickery may not have been out of position but it is no coincidence that we are conceding 40/20s down his wing with such regularity IMO

An excellent point and Sinfield played a lot of second row early in his career. I suppose a balance must be struck between what is best for the 1st team right now and Ward longer term. Id rather he be given some opportunity to play pivot soon though especially as I don't think McGuire has been pulling up many trees recently.

JJB 48 tackles - 19 marker tackles - 2 tackle busts - 18 carries - 97 metres - 2 offloads - his line speed won possession for our first try.

JJB 48 tackles
Ward 32 tackles
Bailey 28 tackles
Delaney 23 tackles (and off injured)

48 tackles is brilliant. But how many misses? There were 3 in a 6 minute spell in 1st half alone. How many penalties conceded?

5 metres per carry is very poor.

So in other words, work rate, enthusiasm can not be faulted. What is achieved can.

Are you trying to prove that the back-row are being overworked in defence as a result of the coach's refusal to play a hooker? If so, congratulations.

For me vickery wasn't at fault for the 40/20.

However watching the game back this morning I wasn't impressed with his effort. In the background he is plodding back and only really starts to run at Watkins first attempt. Would like to see the winger busting a gut to get back to offer an option, sweep up or tackle.

Perhaps not just the back-row, Sinfield finished with 32 tackles which pushes his season average upto 27, much more than the 19-a-game he was doing in 2011 and 2012. It's more like the 28 average he had back in 2009 when he was playing loose forward.

Some halfback tackling comparisions......
Sinfield - 27 average
Danny Brough - 13.4
Luke Robinson - 15.8
Blake Green - 17.4
Matty Smith - 17.1
Rangi Chase - 8.1
Richie Myler - 17.3
Michael Dobson - 14.3
Tim Smith - 12.2
Jarrod Sammut - 16.7
Daniel Holdsworth - 18.6
Danny McGuire - 14.8
Rob Burrow - 8.7

Think teams are seriously targeting Sinfield this year. They know how important he is to this team, and is facing heavy attention.

First 8 games of year he isn't anywhere close to what he has been over years. Personally I think the heavy targeting and the constant playing for both club and country is seriously taking it's toll on him, which isn't fair on him. His half back partner certainly isn't taking some of that workload off him.

What can he do - he can't morph into Sinfield for the tackling and as virtually every play Leeds have ends with Sinfield I am not sure what McGuire can do? We have had this discussion numerous times - you will not change things whilst Sinfield is your attacking go-to man - this has been the case since 2003.

But halfbacks from any team face being targeted as the key to stopping the opposition, so I don't think that is the reason for the big gap in the tackling numbers between Sinfield and other halves. Plus we were heavily targetted in 2012 on that right side that Sinfield defended and he still only did 19 tackles compared to 27.

Either way, your Stand-Off shouldn't be doing 27 tackles a game. No wonder we aren't looking as fluid in attack in the final 20m when the guy who should be creating has had to do almost double the work in defence as his opposite number.

I think a big difference to most other teams is the hooker defends centrally and doesn't have to be hid on the fringes.

Plus, the hooker and/or scrum half usually create something in attack, but Burrow seems to be so confused as to what role he is playing, he just picks it up and runs into a line of defence, or passes it so slowly that we have to stand still to receive it. He needs a hooker on the field for at least a spell so he can do what he does best.

Hooker tackling comparisons:

Michael McIlorum - 23
Josh Hodgson - 31.5
Ian Henderson - 34
Heath l'Estrange - 25
James Roby - 38
Shaun Lunt - 30
Michael Monaghan - 32
Paul Aiton - 38.5
Danny Houghton - 41
Jon Clarke - 22
Chad Randall - 26.5
Wayne Godwin - 27
Daryl Clark - 41
Rob Burrow - 8.5

I know that is part of it, but we played the same way pretty much last year but with Lunt coming off the bench instead of McShane (and not in place of Burrow but with him staying on). Last year and in 2011 we tried to 'hide/limit' the trio of Sinfield/McGuire/Burrow in defence when all 3 were on the pitch. This year I think Sinfield is being asked/taken it upon himself to tackle more in defence than the previous 2 years......it's worked kinda with our defence being the best it's been under McDermott.....but I don't think it's a coincedence that the attack has suffered at the same time.
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Burrow, for what he brings to the hooking role (darting runs) we only scored the 1 try in the 1st 10 mins that we dominated against Bradford and it wasn't one we wouldn't have scored without him on. The whole point of Burrow is running at tired defenders.........well they aren't going to be that tired in the first 20 mins so why not introduce him off the bench after that, not only are the defenders getting slower but Burrow is fresh as well.

First 20-30 mins, a traditional hooker to ultilize Peacock, Leuluai, Bailey, Delaney, JJB the best with good passing from dummy half......then after that when the players from the bench come on and who (going by the stats) aren't encouraged/asked/wanted to carry the ball as much then bring on Burrow who doesn't then have to pass as much from dummy half to the 'back-up' forwards and can do his running from the PTB.

And the thing is, yes Burrow does offer more in attack than most of them, but is it enough to warrant such a low tackling amount and to impact Sinfield's efforts in attack by having to make up the deficit? I don't.....well at least not for the full 80 mins.

The difference is Lunt was trusted with game time. Even when mcshane is on the bench he doesn't get the minutes and one mistake he is off never to be seen again.

I agree with the second part would like to see us use a proper hooker with burrow off the bench.

I agree with the above.
I'd like us at least to try starting with McShane & then bring Burrow on, as we did (I think) many times last year when Lunt was here.
Alternatively & this is from left field why not try Ward as starting hooker, at least he can tackle & as a playmaker he should also have a good passing game.

I'm not sure Burrow did start as sub to Lunt very often, if at all, although i'm not certain. Burrow was used from the bench more the season before to good effect.

You may be right, Burrow did start many games at half back then move to hooker.
Maybe we should revert to this & start with Burrow & Sinfiled with Mags on the bench or heaven forbid, Burrow at 7, Mags at 6 & Sir Kev at 13 with Ablett in the second row & Ward at Centre?
The permutations are endless, as are my ramblings.

I think your right he was used more off the bench in buderus last season, and to good effect

He sees plenty of ball. This is a poor excuse. Danny has not played well at all consistently for quite some time.

As for Burrow, McDermott appeared to have latched onto a useful tactic by starting him at 9 and moving him to 7 when Lunt came on last year. However, it is clear that McDermott has no faith whatsoever in McShane.

What 40/20? Why are you even debating something that (technically) didn't happen.



=#0000BFCorrect.

=#FF000030 yards would be pushing it but he could be expected to be roughly half that distance at that point in the tackle count where the opposition are contained in their own half. That enables him to move forward to join the defensive line if the ball goes to his side or retreat to head off a midfield break or attempted 40/20. The Leeds wingers do this most of the time in that type of situation, indeed there was an example of even Vickery doing this around the 31st minute IIRC.

A well placed kick can still be difficult to defend though especially one before the last tackle option.
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He did this on three occasions in 2012 - Bradford (MM - Won 37-22), Wigan (Home Lost 8-50) and Hull (Home Won 21-6)

That good effect in 2011 culminating in his unanimous winning of the Harry Sunderland award in the Grand Final while playing alongside a quality hooker - not in the place of one.

Looking at Burrow and McShane's Opta averages from this season makes interesting reading for those inclined to do such a thing - I'm guessing that wouldn't include anyone on the Leeds coaching staff.