It should also be noted that our coach is asking Achurch to play prop. I thought he was a wide running second rower.

I thought he was a second rower with a offload game as well.

Very true and using Jjb there aswell points to no future for Griffin ,Moore and Singleton still not trusted and the possible over reliance on JP and Kylie!!

Singleton is only 20, very young for a prop.I see no harm at all in leaving him at Hunslet for the whole season. its a very competetive league where he can play against some tough, seasoned forwards without the spotlight being on him.By all accounts he had a solid game today at Fev.

We have more than enough props on good wages chomping at the bit for game time at the minute.

Moon & Delaney would also be on the Non Fed Trained list too.

..but neither Achurch or Vickery would have needed visas regardless of SL rules. In the case of Vickery at least, if he didn't have a Beritish passport he almost certainly wouldn't have got a visa. Achurch would probably have struggled too.

I'd also take issue with the suggestion that certain forwards wouldn't get into the Storm side. One thing they have shown for years under Bellamy is that they play to a structure so well understood that any number of unknown forwards have shone for them. This is highlighted by the fact that most that have left have been nothing like as good for other clubs.

Also, when discussing the quality of Leeds' recent recruits (which I have criticised myself in the past), have a look round SL. Its hardly brimming with first rate overseas players.

Not only are Jones-Buchanan and Achurch being used as part-time props but it's also telling when Hemmings makes an observation like 'Clarksons been quiet tonight' or words to that effect.

Not sure what Hemmings was expecting to see from him sat on the bench for the opening seventy.

Too early to write Achurch off just yet but Vickery already looks like this year's Michael Coady - although both look better than Omari Caro.

Let's not forget though that this is the greatest Leeds squad the CEO has ever assembled according to the ........ eh CEO.

Maybe on the wing, but as Keinhorst is the better pick as he looks to give the ball more out wide and his defence is aggressive, more suited to a .....I would think Leeds have more to gain from getting keinhorst game time at with his 3yr deal versus Vickery on the wing on a 1yr deal. I would like to see Chisolm given a shot on the wing also

Is it that far behind the ultimately trophy-less 2010 greatest ever Leeds squad according to.........eh you?

IMO Achurch looks to have potential but will be better suited to the back row. I also like the look of Vickery. I understand both have impressed the coaches with their attitude and training which is also a big factor in the selection process.

Do you have the quote ?

I don't but IIRC it went something like 'greatest Leeds squad on paper since 2004.'

I'll stand by that and say now the Leeds 2013 squad isn't as good on paper as either of those.

Not even convinced it's as good as last years, if you recall, that's the one the CEO was legitimately asking 'had it run it's course' in June 2012.

I think we probably all know my view by now - having regularly performed this pantomime routine - not so sure whether you've got an opinion on the relative squad strengths or at least one you're prepared to share?

Agree regarding attitude etc being a big factor. Achurch hasn't set the world on fire but as stated it a big SR. with a offload game playing prop. He doesn't look at the races at the moment but can see the potential.
From what I have seen of vickery he seems ok but yet to be convinced of this signing.

Shouldn't possessing a good attitude and a willingness to train hard be an absolute given for someone like Vickery with either little or no 1st grade experience rocking up to the home of the Champions looking for an opportunity ?

Good attitude and hard work are fine but it still has to be supplemented by talent to make an impact. No size, no pace, no power so yet to understand what Vickery can offer beyond a good training ethic.

No size, no pace, no power?

You didn't see the Boxing Day game, did you tvoc? In fact, exactly how much have you seen of Vickery in the flesh? Somewhere not far off "none at all" I'll wager?

I wouldn't be writing him off just yet, the physical attributes are there and at least unlike Chisholm, he can catch.

You're correct, I have no interest in out of season meaningless friendlies as a reference point.

I've seen every minute that Vickery has played so far at 1st grade level and I'm waiting to see what he has to offer. As a modern day winger he's neither big, elusive or fast. His fielding of the early Melbourne kick was hesitant and laboured turning a possible kick return into a drop-out.

I can't (and don't) comment on players before I've seen them play first grade so I have no opinion to offer re-Chisholm at this stage.

I shared my view in 2010. It's foolhardy, IMO, to label a squad as the best, the greatest or the worst before a ball is kicked or even until the meaningful games are played. It's premature and I haven't been premature since I was 16.

I'll happily critique players abilities and performances as the season goes on and I'll happily bestow greatness upon players when it's been earned on the pitch rather than on paper.

Vickery didn't let anybody down against the Storm, which is not a bad effort in his second full game. Had he been particularly poor in defence, Cronk and Smith would have targeted him all night and we'd all be talking about what a disaster he is.

I don't know why anyone would expect much more from a reserve player. Which is what he'll be if and when everybody's fit.

Quote ="G1"I shared my view in 2010. It's foolhardy, IMO, to label a squad as the best, the greatest or the worst before a ball is kicked or even until the meaningful games are played. It's premature and I haven't been premature since I was 16.'" Was it foolhardy to rate the chances of all fourteen SL clubs before a ball was kicked in 2012 ? Judging by the final table perhaps that should be a yes in your case. Is that really =52 out of 54 ...... come on ...... seriously ? viewtopic.php? ... &start=113 Such a pity you've missed entering this year's comp. Something will always be missing, like winning a Championship from 5th without beating one of your major rivals at any point during the season - should such an unlikely thing ever happen. That doubt of not knowing whether you were truely worthy of the title. The question remains is winning a competition without the boards self-proclaimed Alpha-male really worth winning? Quote ="G1"I'll happily critique players abilities and performances as the season goes on and I'll happily bestow greatness upon players when it's been earned on the pitch rather than on paper.'" Safe and you do it with such charm I imagine nobody could ever take the slightest offense.

Quote ="G1"I shared my view in 2010. It's foolhardy, IMO, to label a squad as the best, the greatest or the worst before a ball is kicked or even until the meaningful games are played. It's premature and I haven't been premature since I was 16.'" Was it foolhardy to rate the chances of all fourteen SL clubs before a ball was kicked in 2012 ? Judging by the final table perhaps that should be a yes in your case. Is that really =52 out of 54 ...... come on ...... seriously ? viewtopic.php? ... &start=113 Such a pity you've missed entering this year's comp. Something will always be missing, like winning a Championship from 5th without beating one of your major rivals at any point during the season - should such an unlikely thing ever happen. That doubt of not knowing whether you were truely worthy of the title. The question remains is winning a competition without the boards self-proclaimed Alpha-male really worth winning? Quote ="G1"I'll happily critique players abilities and performances as the season goes on and I'll happily bestow greatness upon players when it's been earned on the pitch rather than on paper.'" Safe and you do it with such charm I imagine nobody could ever take the slightest offense.

I suppose you would have to say the difference between your "2010 greatest" but trophy-less squad and the subsequent less-great-in-your-opinion, but historic trophy winning ones, is a decent coach!

He also didnt really get much ball in hand, the only real chance he had was the Mcguire pass that went out, I havent seen a replay to determine whether it was a poor pass or he over ran it.

I thought he over ran it slightly - had McGuire shot it straight to Vickery's run it would have been like the ghost of Brent Webb had never left the building.

Or different opposition. Or better fortune with injuries. Or key calls at certain times. Or any number of things.

Except that from my excellent viewpoint in the Carnegie stand it didn't look forward.

On that topic but OT from this thread, what was the difference between the pass from Tim Smith to his brother to that from Luke Robinson to McGillvray in the first half?
On tv both looked to be paseed from just about on the 10m line & caught well in front of it.
One was pulled back but the other one wasn't.
Silverwood, don't you just love him?
The call for the Smith no-try was correct by the way.

Is that historic in the sense of winning despite qualifying as the 5th best team over the course of twenty-seven weekly rounds? I'll give Leeds' McDermott their and his due - on occasions, where they've deemed it neccesary, they've out-performed their relative pay packets. A 50% success rate in Finals is pretty good for Leeds.

The great squad assembled in 2010 found themselves caught off-guard by a true coaching mover and shaker who had just arrived at Wigan bringing 1st class structure, movement and tactics (some a little suspect) basically propelling the same squad of players he inherited from Noble from 6th to 1st and the re-awakening of Warrington under Tony Smith (who McDermott freely admits opened his previously shut and arrogant mind) as they stormed from 10th to 3rd. Even then some point to injuries to two key players as a major factor in denying undeserved glory. I don't by the way, injuries are part of the game - Wigan fully deserved their Championship that season, IMO.

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That would be the stand at a right angle to the direction of pass? Perhaps not entirely definitive then?

I agree the pass wasn't forward but that wasn't my point which was it would have been questionable had it been directed in front of Vickery's run as he had IMO gone early and overrun the intended pass. Compare and contrast to the timing of the ball from McGuire to Hall in the first half. Hall is a quality wingman.

I seem to recall we won the whole competition from the handicapped 5th position....beating "major rivals" Warrington, Wigan and Catalan in the big game playoffs "during the season". Also "during the season" we knocked out "major rivals" Wigan from the Cup during the same "season" This was on top of beating our "major rivals" from downunder for the World Championship. What you fail to comprehend is that in the big games.... the ones that really matter Leeds did the business while their "majors rivals" did not.

You may retain your negative doubts but am happy we were worthy of the title and we were in the finals of all competitions "during the season"

You really do seem to take a delight in looking on the black side of life....are you always so depressed?