The example that I quoted a couple of pages back happened to what is arguably the best equipped, most modern in terms of infrastructure and facilities, amateur rugby league club in the City of Leeds, think of a club that in recent years has had a six figure sum spent on its new clubhouse and you've guessed it.

It was they who lost two of their u10s to a local RU club and it wasn't their fault, it was those kids experiences when playing against visiting teams, they lost two members but several more have been for training sessions at the local RU club and are yet to decide which one they prefer.

At u10 in rugby union they are playing full contact and getting involved in rucking and mauling so its as physical as rugby league is at that age, the difference is in the discipline, on and off field - thats not to say that flare-ups don't happen but they are not encouraged from the sidelines and they are penalised very quickly, there is a discipline in the game at that age that is coached in training and is tangible from the touchline - it helps an awful lot in controlling the parents who follow the kids game, its not a posh kids game and parents don't turn up in Range Rovers, its as working class as RL is - the difference is the discipline.

Why would you think that? I expressed different opinions on different aspects of the game that have different characteristics and different goals. Why is that so hard for you to understand?


So why do you insist I should have the same opinion of both?


I never said that violence should go unpunished, nor do I think excessive violence is acceptable but the odd punch up in an important game is not a major issue in my opinion. I've been coaching kids for 10 years now. I honestly can't think of one who has punched someone because they've seen a pro player do it. I know of kids and kids teams who are aggressive and start fights and commit high tackles, but from my experience that is due to the existing atmosphere and culture at that club or from their coach/parents. It is up to coaches and clubs to ensure that their players behave properly.
Also the violence at amateur games is far in excess of that at pro level, so how is that the amateur game mirroring the pro game? I'm also struggling to think of the last proper punch up or "violence" in a SL game. It is a rare thing nowadays and violence at pro level had been reducing for years, yet we've seen no commensurate decrease in violence at amateur level.

The sad fact of the matter is that the violence at amateur level has nothing to do with the pro game and had everything to do with the people who are involved with running the game, coaching the game, watching the game, and club & league officials at amateur level.


Why is it that you feel the need to belittle other people. I direct you once again to your own advice:



So you admitted you enjoyed it, and then have the nerve to call me a thug without having ever met me. Since you are incapable of actually debating points and merely resort to abuse at each turn I would suggest it's you who is coming across as the more arrogant. I can and will defend the odd flash of occasional violence within reason for the reasons I gave on a previous post. I've said it should be punished, but punished reasonably and taking mitigating circumstances into account. If you don't understand why some violence then you can't decide whether it's acceptable or not.

Yep, spot on in my view.

Yep! And it takes a lot for me to actively consider taking part in physical activity!

Because you say that RL at amateur level is a disgrace, but then condone violence at pro level. Violence has no place in the game at all. The level is irrelevant. If I punch a scally in the street and then punch some 'posh' bloke in a suit is only one of those acts of violence considered unacceptable? Of course not. Violence is not acceptable at any level.



What do you class as excessive though? If I got punched in a game Id think that was pretty excessive but I suspect that if Barrie Mac for example got punched he may consider it just an opening foray into the game. Either way, the punch is unecessary and unacceptable.



Ive never said mirroring. My point is that if violence is deemed acceptable at pro level then surely you would expect amateur and more importantly and dangerously, kids to also follow suit as the argument just says 'if they can we can'. Stamp it out at the top and work down. I would agree that the real hardcore violence that has perhaps been seen in the past is in the main stuck their, and thats a great thing. But again, that wasnt the question.



Who am I belittling? RL and all involved need to look at the big picture. That isn't or shouldn't be news to anyone. We like to think of ourselves as this great sport yet only a few thousand on any given weekend watch it. Dont be so sensitive.



Please point out the part where I said 'Him is a thug'. I absolutely admit I like seeing Bailey stand his ground. What you miss is that standing your ground is not in itself an act of violence, its just defiance. The Burrow incident was just comical. Would you care to elaborate on what the mitigating circumstances for violence might be? From what Ive seen in a RL arena the only 'mitigation' and I use the term very loosely is that someone inflicted a high tackle so the player retailiated. What you are really seeing there is one act of violence being met with another. Do you deem this acceptable? I agree there is a certain amount of moral justification but as the saying goes, two wrongs dont make a right.



As Ive said. Violence at any level is not acceptable and never should be seen as so. If you are as educated as you are trying to imply why would you think otherwise?

Dont get me wrong. I dont wear Jesus sandals and my hair in a ponytail. Im not disconnected from reality. I understand why and how violence flares in games, and I dont think you will ever lose it, and if you did you would lose something from the game. But when asked a straight question 'Is violence an acceptable part of Rugby League?' there is no way a rationale person can say yes.

Spot on. I mentioned before I coach union (now U9's). We started full contact this year, with rucking and mauling and it's tough. We often play league in training when we don't want to concentrate on the breakdown. Our club is small (only two senior teams) and not well off but the minis section (U6-U12) is a great place to be. The kids in a small town get to know each other and make friends from other schools and ages and it's safe. We take no nonsense, no bullying, no backchat and we don't allow parents to be abusive (never seen it from our club but from other clubs it has happened). We will simply not accept fixtures from clubs who have "parent" issues.
Our fund raising comes from the beer festival, our recent minis festival (we had over 500 people there) and various other events through the year. We go on tour over the Easter weekend - usually Devon or Cornwall, and last year we had 300 people. We visited two other clubs for games while on tour and had a great time. Everyone volounteers when needed, parents and coaches.
I'd love my lad to be able to play league in an environment like that.

hiya folks, not been on here in years, saw this article and thought this would be the best to post on.
As some one whos played both college rugby and open age rugby at amateur level, theres a fine line as to what is acceptable and what isn't.

To me a punch up like has been stated can be part and parcel of the game, but an example of a street brawl on the pitch with kicking and also possibly biting, (yes i do class punching as violent) is not what should and isn't acceptable within the game, thats what a ref's partly there for, to stop this kind of behaviour and also if he/she sees any of it early on should stop it and give both captains warnings.

Also as has been stated, at youth level (to me under 18's), there should be no need or call for violent behaviour (punch ups included) at those levels and it should be stopped and also the players/parents must be given warnings and also punished if it is happening at these levels.

But in open age it could be seen as slightly more acceptable as being part and parcel of the game.

To me it is something i believe is part of the game and should only be accepted at pro and open age amateur levels, but like i said there is a fine line, an example would be the melbourne V manly match, it got all the players and fans 'excited' at the start that there was a but of a scuffle and a punch up, it continued and got out of control near the sidelines and that wasnt acceptable and quite a few players got sent off, banned for several games and also fined.


no doubt some of you will disagree and pick holes with this post but thats my view, that at over 18 it is slightly more acceptable but that there is a fine line that all players, coaches, fans and officials must know where it gets too much and must be stopped.

Who's your borther? I'll likely have played with him.

I can't claim to be responsible for how the Outlaws approach the game, but it was a massive part of my decision to become so involved at the club. Its a real family club, with a focus on doing things the right way.

There will always be the odd nutter on the sidelines. The key to stopping the sort of goading is to nip it in the bud before it becomes ingrained. There have been a couple of over excited parents this year. Someone having the balls to go up to them and tell them that their behaviour is not acceptable at a RL game is all it takes to resolve the situation.

Where that nutter is actually closer to being the majority, I would suggest the battle has already been lost

Sounds fairly sensible to me. Kids shouldn't be punching each other (I know it happens, we had an incident in one of our age groups the other week), but it's just not allowed to continue or be part of the game in any way. Having not played RL I don't know how often it happens compared to Union, but I've played against league players who filled half the Warrington Union side I played against many years ago and found them completely fair (although they did hit very, very hard!). My experience of junior club rugby in Union is that every now and then the forwards need to sort out things the ref isn't. There are so many ways to "spoil" in Union at the breakdown that it's the place that it usually kicks off. In days past you could ruck the **** out of someone killing the ball and I've even seen a guy clearing rucks by punching anyone he could see in the way. I have had two or three "fights" in rugby, almost all that I've started (not proud). I'm rubbish at it and the last punch I threw everyone on my own team laughed at - and rightly so.
IMO rugby has a big element of controlled aggression and physical confrontation which sometimes boils over - it's not about fighting.

Dave Varley, he's not been playing regularly but plays the odd game here and there. I've been to watch him a couple of times and been impressed by both the positive atmosphere and the willingness to at least try and move the ball around. It's the way game should be played at amateur level in my view and the people involved with the Outlaws should be proud of their club.

You're spot on with your comment re nipping it in the bud as well, sadly there are just too many coaches and club officials who either can't be bothered or just don't care to try stop it at many other clubs

Ah yes, I know Dave. I wish he'd been able to make it down a bit more often as he was a player who had a bit of size about him. Something not many of us have, which is probably why we tend to move the ball about a bit

Yeah he definitely has some KFC and Domino's induced size about him. The interchange system was designed with Dave in mind.

I play amateur level for a club in Leeds, and abuse from the sidelines is part and parcel of playing away (it shouldn't be, but it is). It's not just the players that get abuse either, the referee too. If it's intimidating for us as a team of 17 rugby players, it must be awful for a ref being completely on their own.

It does seem to be part of the culture in amateur RL, and it's not hard to see that the attitude must filter down to junior levels.

You don't coach the juniors do you?

Seriously though, it does sound like there is an example being set in the Midlands, and probably more clubs and, more crucially, the leagues, need to follow DHM's example too and just start refusing to sanction fixtures involving "problem" teams, unless they learn to behave.

Being a tad on the small side for RL, I played amateur football from the age of 6 until my ankles refused to allow it anymore. The same problems exist. Some leagues handle it better than others. I've played in leagues where the committee persistently do nothing about repeat offenders and it puts clubs in a difficult position. You can refuse to play, but that risks fines and also deprives you f the chance of 6 points per season, which hardly seems fair. I played my last couple of seasons in a Warwickshire league, which featured a team who had received 12 red cards by Christmas in my last season. Generally these were for serious foul play (read 'attempted murder') or fighting, and generally too late in matches to have any bearing on the outcome. They also tended to have a lot of red cards against them, from people taking the law into their own hands. Which I don't condone, but a lot of the refs were understandably intimidated by some of the stuff that went on. The league took no action against the club and as far as I know, said club are still in business in the top division. A status they tend to maintain by kicking ten bells out of some of the younger teams until they give in.

I'd guess that's a familiar tale for a lot of people involved in amateur RL?

And therein lies the crux of the problem.

It tends to be those representing the "problem" clubs who shout loudest at league management committee meetings, who throw their weight around then threaten to throw their toys out of the pram at the first hint of sanction, who have been on the committee for 20-odd years and have built up a little clique of those clinging to their coat tails desperate for their own sniff of power.

Rugby Union at lower levels is run by people who do it for the love of the game. Amateur RL is run primarily (in my experience around Leeds anyway) for their own benefit by those who are on an ego trip.

I can think of a Sunday football league not a million miles away from the NW Leeds area which would fit that description down to the ground.

No wonder RU does so well at the grass roots is it?

No I don't. Dave is by no means a junior though.

I have done a lot of work with young players coming into open age for the first time. Uffortunately, not all midlands teams behave in the same spirit, and there have been a couple of occassions where there's been some unneccessary intimidation of the youngsters, needless to say it needed to be sorted out, and was. I was pretty upset at the attitudes of some teams for what in reality is a level so grassroots, you're practically 6ft under

For the sake of balance, I have also experienced agro & violence in Rugby Union, as well as League, though I tend to laugh it off, and get on with it, and hit the dirty fekker harder next time he has the ball

We don't play mini or junior fixtures against our local large town because one of their parents assualted one of our juniors during a match a couple of years a go. They either change their culture or we don't go near them.
We still played them at senior level though and I found their 2nd team to be a good bunch last year (especially the guy who I butted heads with - we both ended up chatting in casualty), but their firsts and their supporters were a bunch of c***s. Thankfully not in our league this year.

We do seem to suffer a discrepancy between our adults approach, and our juniors.

As usual, some good & intelligent posts from the board's coaching fraternity. Dunno whether others feel the same but I always find this stuff worth reading.