Some of the fans last night were an embarrassment . Some of the comments they were coming out with were priceless .
' I have never seen such e'
'I have never seen us play so badly'
Fookin useless bunch of w4nkers'
etc etc etc ..

Guessing those fans haven't been following Leeds very long .

The Wigan walk was a disgrace . I almost got trampled at about the 60 mins mark .

Bradford should be interesting . No home or away supporters

20k in 20 days .. Be lucky if they get 10k on Thursday with the performances both teams have been putting in recently ..

Are you Wigan in disguise?

Tony Smith said the same thing when he arrived at Headingley.
To the team, not the press.
Leeds at that time were in the habit of losing to Bradford and he asked the players to estimate their past completion rates against Bradford.
I don't recall the average rate but it was high but Smith was making the point that despite high completion rates they weren't succeeding.
He was saying that completion rates are not the be-all and end-all, you do need to play the percentages sometimes.

What appears to be missing is a game plan and the basic skills required when chucking the ball around.

Why do things have to be so black and white. There are multiple problems with the team at the moment. The coach is one, the players are another. Not sure why McDermott was brought in, I was initially confident, but I'm not so sure now. I wouldn't sack him yet though. For me, he's in the Daryl Powell position, manage the transition accept a couple of lean years, and hopefully build a decent team which we can hand on to a top coach.

The players is a more complex issue. In 2009 when we won the SL (for the third time in a row), Sinfield mentioned that the players all accepted less moeny at Rhinos than they would elsewhere. Now the culture of the club has bought that loyalty from the players. That loyalty cuts both ways, and some of the older players are being rewarded for that loyalty shown earlier. I guess it sets down a marker to other players that loyalty is a two way thing.

Recruitment is also something I think we have been poor in. We have known about Seniors decline for a couple of years ago, and yes we should still have stayed loyal to him, but we should have planned better for his retirement. Peacock and Sinfield will start to decline too, and we will really need to be thinking how we can try work without them. Fundamentally, I think the whole way we play will have to change.

Exactly.

So you are saying Smith saw a problem, coached and educated the players into playing percentages, taking calculated risks, to provide a winning formulae. Sounds like a plan.

Mcdermott has highlighted a similar thing, but what we are seeing is chaos, forced passes, bad options and failed sets. So, what's his plan? No one has come up with an answer yet, it beats me.

The job of the coach is to add value - not every coach has the best squad - what they have to do make the whole greater than the sum of its parts.

Can anyone hand on heart say the coach at Leeds is achieving this?

We have seen a number of games this year that have been away from us and slipped away, slipped away, slipped away.

When Mac tactically changes something on the pitch mid-game, a change of pattern, a different play, a change in ethos etc then he can't be blamed IMO. But he has failed to show any kudos as a coach in this area as yet.

There was the Bulls game, first game up, but I think the players thought that Bluey was still coach.

Look at both games at home against Giants 2010 + 2011. Last year the game was away from us and it was a classic comeback, this year it was never on the cards.

Too many differences this season to make any comparison meaningful. Hudderfield are a much better side this year (their coach also needed time!) Our key players that have been performing this year (Sinfield, Buderus & JJB) were feeling the effects of tremendous individual efforts in recent games and were not as effective. To have the classic comeback needs a classic offload game the one that many here have done nothing but criticise.

Why I am defending Mac is that he has had a set of problems that are not of his making and I believe that none of the other coaches in SL would have done any better given the same set of circumstances. He may turn out not to be the best man for the job but to put all the blame at his door at this stage is wrong.

Consider the following:

1. We started off with 2 wins and were playing some attractive rugby and topped the try & points scoring list. So this would indicate a reasonable pre-season and players understanding the coaches game plan.

2. He has started off without 2 of the 3 most influential players in the squad plus Bailey.

3. Our new injuries started in the 2nd game at Hull and have continued almost evey week since.

Remember he had no props for one game!

Remember how BJB was setting the SL on fire early doors - out on long term
injury.

Remember Delaney made such a good start in the 2nd row - out injured 2nd game.

Remember how well Burgess started the season and had been our best prop - out injured.

Also we have had to play matches withoiut Lauitiiti, Burgess, Kylie, Smith, Hardaker, Ablett, Cross, Clarkson, etc in addition to JP & DM and Bailey.

4. New signing Hauraki has had a terrible start with missed tackles and handling errors galore, matched by Senior whose form has deserted him. You cannot blame the coach for this yet these two between them have cost us victories.

5. We were unlucky to play Harlequinns when they were in a purple patch and top of the table.

So our problems are many and complex and added together are the reasons for the bad start. But no worse a start than last season when we did not have the above set of factors. What is now compounding our problems is the players know the supporters are unhappy and critical and this only puts further pressure on them leading to a further loss of confidence and a downward spiral. Soon they will prefer to play away than at Headingley.

I cannot overstate the serious set of injuries this year and I feel this is the main factor.

Despite all this we should have beaten Wigan and we showed for most of the game excellent attack and well organised defence but basic errors from Webb and Senior cost us the tries that would have sealed the victory despite the Wigan comeback and the switching off in defence in the last 15 minutes. This was not the coaches fault but the players.

These sort of errors are not down a a style of play they are players errors that they normally would not make.

Everyone knows that we have some real serious defensive issues but they are not new and were evident last season too. Some say the coach should have fixed it by now but the injuries have meant a constantly changing side with players out of position and him having to select some out of form and I guess also some not fully fit players because of neccessity.

Since our back to back GF wins too many posters seem to think it is our God given right to win everything now. Winning silverware should always be our target, but as there is only one GF winner and one CCup winner the odds will always be against this happening. If your only definition of success is silverware you are going to be disappointed for most of the time. (or go support Man U)

IMO what is more important is to watch attractive rugby and for Leeds to be in with a chance of victory as often as possible. St Helens have missed out on silverware so often but must be considered one of SL's most successful and entertaining sides- whats wrong with that.

That is why I say we should encourage our team to play thrilling rugby rather than one up stuff so we can enjoy the entertainment even when we lose.

SL is all about momentum. Not just during a game but in sequences of games. The other sides will have their turn and IMO we will improve enough to be round and about at the end of the season. I hope that the standard of play improves soon so that we can all get behind the team as having the crowd behind you is always worth a few points and improves the players confidence.

JC I admire your optimism and dedication. Sadly I do not share it.

Great post JC some very valid and relevant points well thought out and put across.
I agree in the main but do you not think the coach should be getting better efforts out of what is avialable and the lack of hunger ,desire and basic defensive structure and technique should fall at his door?
The improvement in teams like the Giants are there for all to see but again no matter what our problems are we could and should be so much better not least in terms of effort and the basics.
I do agree the players really should take their fair share if not most of the blame but they don't look like they want to play for the coach and more importantly the coach does'nt seem to know what to do about it.

I agree with you. Let's not forget from the very start of the season the defence has been a shambles.....the thing that many expected to be worked on specifically during the long close season. There was plenty of time to perfect discipline and answers to the enforced lay off of both McGuire and Peacock.

The players are lacking confidence progressively more as the season progresses...is that not the coaches' job to rectify that ? They hardly seem to be the most inspirational



The best sales force performs better under an inspirational and dynamic [urespected[/u management. They respond. I do not see that.

I've seen Leeds with good squads on paper play dreadfully, and poor squads play well. The difference was the coach. Whilst injuries have undoubtedly affected the team this year, if you look at the 17 we put out every week there is absolutely no reason it can't at least compete with any side in SL (not necessarily win but compete). It is the players that make mistakes etc, but I get the distinct impression the team doesn't want to play for Brian Mc.

That was eth conclusion I drew from the "efforts" at goal line defence Friday.

Let analyse JC's proposition.

It's the players. The players who, in the main, set the SL standard with 3 GF wins on the bounce.

It's not the coach. The coach who took Harlequins further down the league table year after year.

I eagerly await another half page post full of excuses.

I'm not sure if this has been mentioned anywhere, but where was Brian Mac sat for the match? I may have been wrong, but I couldn't see him in the dug-out?

I think the injuries haven't helped, but some of the problems seem to be systemic. We still produced a few decent individual, off-the-cuff plays on Friday, but our attack lacked structure (some of which I concede comes down to the players) and simple things like (most notably) marker defence are letting us down week after week. Even when the attractive rugby is working going forward you have to be able to defend.

Wherever he was sat he came in for some stick according to the YEP!
G1 i think you are being unfair on JC lets be honest the injuries loss of confidence and constant changes to the 17 are rellevant and the players have to shoulder some of the blame for the awful errors tbf mate.

I hate to point this out to you Gareth, but petrol has gone over £1 a litre and we no longer have a Labour government.

Sport is about looking ahead and planning for the future, not about offering contracts on the basis of past glories. What these players achieved in 2007-2009 should have had absolutely no bearing on recruitment/retention for 2011 and beyond.

McDermott's inherited a group of players with all the hunger of Mr Creosote when presented with a wafer-thin mint.

That's opinion, and I'm afraid I don't buy it. the look on JJB's face stood in the dug-out, or Sinfield's expression as he came off the field, to name but two, didn't suggest a lack of hunger.

I also saw little evidence of a lack of effort in Friday's performance. Plenty of evidence of being disorganised and short of focus. Players do take some blame for that, but the coach does too. Past glories or not, I still believe (also opinion, of course) that there is a blend of experience and young talent in this Leeds squad which, while I don't think makes it a real title contender, is capable of much better than this.

Disagree. the majority of the squad are winners. I think they still want to be winners. Prior to last Friday JJB had made 80 tackles in 2 games. That doesn't strike me as a player not hungry.

What about the players Mcdermott inherited at Harlequins? Are we just ignoring his track record there as irrelevant?

Defence is at least 50% hunger and enthusiasm to put your body on the line so you don't let down the bloke next to you in the defensive line, particularly goal-line defence.

If you think Leeds aren't lacking in effort then fair enough, that's your opinion. It's not one I share mind. Even with a fairly mediocre defensive structure you can cover up the cracks by being prepared to work that bit harder. I don't see too many Leeds players being prepared to put in the sort of shift required, and haven't for the last 12 months or so (occasional displays such as Wigan away in the playoffs apart).

Wasn't his job at Quins to rebuild the team after a lot of outward traffic? where he was also instructed to increase the number of young british players in the team?

In other words a rebuilding job replacing past it players.

So if they still want to be winners, why are they heading backwards in their individual and collective development at a rate of knots if it's not through lack of application? Players don't suddenly forget how to tackle, or how to communicate in defence, yet it appears this lot have. If it's not collective attitude and desire then what is it?

His Harlequins record is about as relevant as Leeds 2007-2009 GF wins to current form, so feel free to introduce it if you think it helps you.

Andy, I am a simple man. I've seen these players do what no on else in SL has done before.

I've seen these coaches fail badly at their previous clubs. I'd be happy for you to persuade me that the coaches are not in some way to blame for the sorry state of performances. Telling me the past track record of a coach is irrelevant is not convincing me.

What is convincing me is....

"Defence will sort itself out"
"Completion rates are unimportant"
"Watch me flick this rubber glove fellas"

As I said elsewhere I don't think we're the best team in the league any more and I doubt we've the players to win it this year but my view is competent coaches could improve this team by some distance.

If you judge coaches on results, the evidence is in for Lowes and McDermott. If you judge them on improving the teams performances, the results are in.

Just what are you judging them on to conclude the current malaise is not down to them, btw?

Absolutely no question whatsoever.

There is many questions to that. It is not that simple, and my own opinion as I have repeated several times is that had Wayne Bennett been here with the same players and the same injuries, we would still be struggling for a top 4 place.

It's very simple - good coaches get more out of their team than bad coaches do.

McDermott and Lowes are bad coaches. Good coaches would do better.

The way Leeds have approached games this season reeks of bad coaching, flinging the ball around aimlessly before putting in some hard work and moving forward.