however baileys stats going forward are usually poor too. With him and cross both tackling type props we have no go forward from the front rowers, peacock apart. We missed delaney in the pack big style on friday because he really went forward well

I thought Kirke generally was receiving praise for his performance rather than his stats.

Even from his biggest critics and rightly so.

People noted a better performances pre stats been up.

Post stats been put up - that's when the heavy pats on the back started.

I clocked that, don't worry about that.

It's as if you're suggesting people were/are reluctant to post an opinion on a performance until the stats are known. I never realised Opta were so influential. I have to say I hadn't noticed Kirke's performance being elevated by the stats (there was certainly no evidence of that on the stats thread viewtopic.php?f=17&t=483796) and I think it had much more to do with the actual stint he'd put in and McDermott's post match comments. His stats were fairly unremarkable.

It's as if you're suggesting people were/are reluctant to post an opinion on a performance until the stats are known. I never realised Opta were so influential. I have to say I hadn't noticed Kirke's performance being elevated by the stats (there was certainly no evidence of that on the stats thread viewtopic.php?f=17&t=483796) and I think it had much more to do with the actual stint he'd put in and McDermott's post match comments. His stats were fairly unremarkable.

yet still a massive step up from his norm.

Looking at average meters made per game for our prop forwards last year, Bailey wasn't that much better than Kirke. An uncomfortable truth for the Bailey fanclub?

Peacock: 152.6
Leuluai: 92.0
Eastwood: 88.5
Bailey: 65.8
Kirke: 50.5

Anyone who thinks Peacock wouldn't have made a difference in the play-offs and CC final is deluded.

Bailey has many strings to his bow does Ian Kirke?

Please elaborate.
Can't include:
1. Winds opposition up
2. Is TMFMISL
3. Has 4 GF rings
4. Stats don't tell you everything

statements backed up by verifiable facts/stats will be accepted not you or any one else's opinion.

Three SL Rings suggest otherwise!

Have you factored in game time or number of carries when calculating these stats?

No. Here goes though (m/carry):

Eastwood 7.58
Peacock: 7.48
Leuluai: 7.41
Bailey 6.24
Kirke 6.09

Still doesn't look good for Bailey. He's much closer to Kirke than he is to Leuluai.

Looking at blokes playing rugby on the pitch tells a different story to looking at spreadsheets after the event.

Baileys defensive work ethic far outweighs Kirkes. You can see that from just watching the 2 on any given day.

Why bother posting on these stat threads then?



I'm not claiming that the stats I've posted paint a full picture (Bailey bust nearly twice as many tackles as Kirke last season FWIW), but to decry them as meaningless is pretty crass. I suspect most coaching teams use them quite regularly. I'd take stats over a fan's subjectively formed opinion any day.

And on defence, last season:

Bailey made 485 tackles in 22 appearances, missing 28 = 22.0 per game, 95% success
Kirke made 522 tackles in 24 appearances, missing 42 = 21.8 per game, 93% success

Hardly evidence of a defensive ethic that far outweighs Kirke's.

I would suggest those three are facts, apart from the fact his rings were stolen

The most indicative statistic you've put confirms what I see on match days and what I've regularly complained about. There is no dominance of any collision by Kirke, either in attack or defence. That he had nearly half as many tackle busts as Bailey (in 2 extra appearances) just shows how meekly Kirke takes it to the line. I'll agree that statistic is useful.

The tackles stat is not so useful. How do you measure winning the collision in a tackle?

i would agree g that kirke should not have got a contract this year, for me the odd good game isn't good enough. however i would suggest that bailey needs to up his game because frankly he should be so much better

Bailey started showing signs of the potential he has from mid last season onwards. I know people get on his back but he's only just (3 months) 27 and as far as props go was a skinny kid up until a year or so ago. Some guys (Sam Burgess/Stuart Fielden) peak early and are good kids. Other props start to play well when they get to late 20's/early 30's.


Also the stats that are being brought up about metres per game/ metres per carry. Wasnt Kirke running into outside backs for a lot of those stats?

1 and 3 are opinions not shared by all. Neither can you pick and choose a stat that suits your arguement then use phrase 3 to rule out those that do not.
Comment re GF rings which is another favourite with the Bailey Fan Club is not evidence of another string in his bow.

I want the poster to tell us what extra strings that Bailey brings which exceeds that of Kirke, Cross, Leuluai and back them up with facts not opinions i.e statement: He wins collisions, I've seen it, give examples. Other people have seen him consistently driven back in the tackle/ lose collisions, unless backed up with stats or examples it is just as invalid.

Are you trying to say that "Ryan Bailey has 4 Grand Final rings" (in the context of winning them rather than currently possessing them) is not a fact?

I have DVD's showing him collecting a ring at Old Trafford on 4 seperate occasions, if you would like to borrow them


Also, I think Radford, Graham and Mary (among others) would agree he winds up the opposition

This is a point I was making last year. The go forward for both these two big men is just not good enough.

I have a personal theory that tall men do not get into their stride quick enough to be effective go forward props and are too easily tackled. There are exceptions - Peacock has exceptional strength and leg power and Morley has pace and rugby aggression. Sadly Bailey and Kirke lack these qualities which is why their go forward game is poor and why neither power over for tries close to the line like Graham and Cunningham (really was a prop) do.

I suspect their high centre of gravity plays a part - top heavy almost. Watch the lock forwards in a union game; huge, strong men but absolutely feeble when it comes to making yardage.

You could argue his improved form in the 2nd part of last season was in contrast to his poor form in the first part.

Bailey has improved the number of tackles per game over the last few years but his metres per carry has deteriorated. Possibly his most effective season was back in 2004 as a 2nd rower.

At best both Bailey & Kirke are bench players who are not in the same class as the likes of Peacock, Graham, Morley etc. The later two will possibly have fewer GF winners rings but are several classes better that messrs Bailey & Kirke

I meant this as a compliment. He had the physique and go forward of the best props plus the great distribution skills of a half back.