I'm butting in, that Saints side is one on the slide, they reminded me of the old gunslinger walking into the bar and taking on the new kid on the block and getting shot between the eyes.

Long, Cunningham, Wellens are all past their best, Gardner and Meli and weak and between them a total liability.

Graham almost single handedly carries the pack.

I think for those points alone Saints deserve credit for the way they played lasnight but the overwhelming fact this season is that the quality of SL has started to slide with the introduction of the likes of Celtic and Salford, the franchise system aimed at delivering better quality and stronger competion will not work.

Stating an opinion and hopefully a consistent one I've held all season.

Rather that than flip fopping every time the wind changes.

..An opinion you should change after last night really. You should recognise that you had a lack of faith in the playing squad and the CEO. Its' not to your credit that you steadfastly stick to your guns in the face of overwhelming evidence that you were wrong.

Luckily, I have consistently supported both and said, quite some time ago, that if Mclennan addressed the discipline, we would win it.

Yet to see any evidence that I ever said Leeds were incapable of defending their title only that they were weaker as a squad this season than last.

A view supported by the Leeds CEO and President.

? The same president that said the squad was Leeds best ever?

Are you elated with what the team has acheived this season?

Anyone with a modicum of common sense can see that our current squad could be strenghtened by the inclusion of another forward and a right centre.

A point missed by those who appear to be still carrying a torch for the previous managment,

but not thankfully by our CEO, or the more astute Headingley fans.

Our 2010 squad could be awesome, and on that note, I bid you all a Good Night

The CEO and President both said the off season recruitment hadn't gone to plan. That is as straightforward as it gets.

I've not read either of them saying that Leeds couldn't defend their SL title which is something else we have in common.

I'm pleased every time Leeds win a game let alone a championship.

I'd still rate the 04 win as the biggest achievement in the last 30+ years. Breaking that title drought was immense. Not to diminish what McClennan has achieved in any way at all. And I hope he goes on to be the most successful Leeds coach ever in terms of trophies.

Next year will be very interesting. 'On paper' Leeds look as though we'll be a good deal stronger (assuming Senior stays in form), although the Buderus-Diskin issue needs a rethink IMO. Sts will have one threequarter amongst the donkeys, which will make a difference, but I agree they appear to be showing the signs of ageing. Warrington should be more competitive from the off and I think Wigan will be stronger as well. I suspect Hudds and KR will drift a bit.

Perhaps the most interesting thing to watch for next year is Leeds' attitude towards the Challenge Cup. I suspect a lot of our players will be hugely motivated in their desire to win that. Looking at already announced signings for next year, they may never have a better chance to win it.

The last paragraph is the key - the quality on the field is seriously diminished - that is what the salary cap does it supposedly increases competition but in order to achieve that it has to bring the the top sides down to the level of the lowest common denominator.

The cap is a good thing if you want to stop a Wigan situation of the 90s - although with full time teams that would be unlikely to happen - but it needs increasing annually with inflation - the cap hasn't moved in value since its inception - this penalises the sides with the good business plan

For me I would give each player a value - youngster no value to encourage developement and inclusion - a figure for GB players depending on experience, overseas players would be the same value regardless of status thereby encouraging clubs to only recruit the top players and then a value for a side in a game ie £3m and then the coaches would need a blend of players to make up your side

OK, I can concede that recruitment didn't go to plan.

However, that said, I maintained all along this squad was good enough to retain the title. Many doubted that. They were wrong and I was right.

Harry Jepson said this was Leeds best squad ever. Do you disagree with Mr Jepson?

There is one vital and very obvious flaw in that statment

its called

LEEDS RHINOS ... THREEPEAT CHAMPIONS

Operating below the Salary Cap for 3 years...yet still managing to recruit overseas quality.... and bringing young emerging home trained talent through as well.

PS, its' not just Mr Jepson. The CEO now agrees with me that this is the "best Leeds team ever".

So maybe we weren't desperate for that prop and right centre after all.

Not just the best Leeds team, but the best squad. IIRC there were those who levelled criticism at Blueys "Man management" approach to coaching. It now appears that this particular group of players who a couple of years ago were reported to be fractious and fragmented under Smiths leadership are now willing to put themselves into bat for each other even when the chips are down. It appears that the lack of "big name" signings has actually given those who remain an incentive to step up to the plate and demonstrate what they can achieve given a steady run in the team.

I have a confession of my own to make though. When Diskin went to burrow through from D/H on the 5th I did start to say "Oh FFS", this did then change to "F*** me, he's only gone and done it"

Finally, what did Jesus once say, 'it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.'

I think I know how he felt.



Of which I don't believe I was one but please carry on. My goal for Leeds this season (as it is every season) was to achieve the Cup and Championship double as I've never seen it done and what's more it's never been done by any Leeds side in their history (but several others have done it including St Helens and Bradford in the SL Era.) I really thought there was an opportunity this season but the off season recruitment probably put pay to that.



Who am I to disagree with someone who has watched Leeds (albeit as a Hunslet man) from the 1920's. I don't think his comments were specifically related to this season's squad though but to a period covering the recent seasons. He also states that this season's squad could and implies should have been stronger and that next season's will be stronger where again I'm in agreement.

That is where you are wrong - Leeds won the championship not because they were a better side than the previous but because the others have gone so far backwards - this side isn't better than 2007/08 even you must agree that.

It penalises Leeds because they are not able to keep their best home grown players Lee Smith is an example Scruton is another - next season Leeds will have 7 yes 7 overseas players - is that really beneficial to the game? Eventually clubs will see no benefit in bringing through their own players if they are able to recruit full fledged Aussies for a fraction of the development cost - if all that happens is that when they become top quality they have to sell them to stay under the cap.

Listening to Sinfield it suggests that without the goodwill of the players and their agreement to take reduced salaries this team would have been broken up some time ago - that is why the cap penalises the top sides.

Listening to Sinfield all those who believed Buderus was on mega money are well wide of the mark - hey Danny

- there is no way the top players would accept a lower salary so he could earn mega bucks!!!

I was waiting for someone to trot out that argument, and I knew it would be you.

Saints 2009 squad is deeper than either of the previous two. Look at the young players they have blooded this year such as Wheeler, Lomax etc who were able to come in and enable them to keep winning even when they had injury issues to key players.

And yet with a supposedly weaker squad than 2007 and 2008, with their two key overseas signings either injured or unable to get a visa, Leeds were able to do something they hadn't been able to for the last two years and finish ahead of them over the weekly rounds.

Lee Smith and Nick Scruton left because two other clubs saw their value as being much higher than Leeds were prepared to offer. That would happen with or without the salary cap. Perhaps Scruton would have done well to heed the words of his former captain after the game on Saturday, as would Messrs Calderwood and Walker?

I am begining to feel its impossible to educate you D.

Its not so long ago you were losing money telling me Leeds wouldnt win a single trophy in a season never mind 3 GF pn the trot.

As to the above ridiculous statement you are aware the goal isnt for Leeds to be better then THEIR predecessors it is to be better than THEIR opponents.



You were arguing that the Salary Cap impinges on this vital goal when clearly the indisputable FACT is that you are WRONG AGAIN as Leeds unique record demonstrates..





Answer me this one as well do you think the likes of Scruton Walker Claderwood etc and no Smith have made a huge mistake based soley on chasing the money at the WRONG time in their careers. ????

I disagree re Saints - their problem was the number of ageing players who have taken up too much salary cap and as a result the depth of the squad is weaker IMO - all these youngsters they have blooded only Eastmond played more than 5/6 games and he was the only different player in their side in 2009 compared to 2008. How many of these blooded youngsters will get a regular place next year?

I think most on here would suggest the standard of rugby this year has on the whole been poor across SL and Leeds are no exception. That is to take nothing away from what they achieved which is outstanding but say they were best of a very competitive league simply doesn't ring true IMO.

You're confusing quality with competitive.

It would be hard to argue that SL was anything but more competitive this year. Leeds lost almost a quarter of their games in the regular season, Saints nearly a third. There were only 12 points separating 2nd from 8th.

You may have an argument about quality, although I think the World Cup may have had more of a hangover than many would give it credit for, with a larger than usual number of players from SL being deprived of a full off-season programme as a result.

That depends what you think a competitive league is Dave. Some seem to think it should involve superior teams enabled to play free flowing rugby against inferior opponents.
What we're seeing now are closer teams playing position and possession. You might not see so many passes across the backs to wingers in space, but do you really want to? Or would you rather see a competitive but scappy game?

I think I mentioned it first on this thread.

Leeds League campaign finished 2009 where it finished 2008 exactly. Same wins, same losses, same points.

This year it finished four points clear of St Helens, Last year one point behind.

St Helens also had to play an extra game in 2008 as opposed to 2009.

Perhaps they had an unluckier year with injuries forcing the premature introduction of a number of youngsters but they also had a skinnier squad at 1st grade level. Who replaced Sculthorpe, Talau, Fozzard and Bennett from the 2008 squad?

David, you're making a mistake that smokey makes on the Virtual terrace.

Leeds could pay certain individual players mega bucks if they wanted. The salary cap doesn't prevent them throwing silly money at lee Smith. Its' Leeds own internal wage structure that prevents them. Its' that wage structure that has engendered the kind of team spirit Sinfield was talking about and that has led to our success.

Other clubs don't do this. Wigan, for example, will be willing to pay one or two players a huge salary and let the rest of their squad feed of the scraps. Do you really think that will help them?

Even if there were no salary cap I expect Mr Hetherington would still adopt his pay structure and he'd be damned right to do so.

Youre doing what you did with the Leeds squad this year. That worked out well for you didn't it?

Gareth I don't disagree with anything you have said - but do you really want to be in a position where you have to release players you have nutured/developed since they were 16 because of salary cap issues - this situation will get worse if the cap is not increased - clubs will simply stop investing in young talent if this is what happens

If we want to be competitive at international level we need to ensure all the talent stays within the game surely - losing players to the other code is a sad indictment of the SC - I see Ashton scoring again for Northampton at the W/E - a serious talent lost to the game.