Except now they are a suit full of fook all with an understanding of how the media works and how it can be manipulated, which makes them a more dangerous beast than the lumbering dinosaurs of the Howe, Lawson, Tebbit era.

The good times were all built on a mythical foundation, of massive government borrowing, consumer spending, low credit , and house prices. The global recession would still have hit, but if Labour hadn't borrow massively and encouraged the public to follow suit, we'd have been better prepared for it.

I will stick by the middle paragraph of my previous post.

You think the government encouraged people to borrow recklessly? I must have missed those adverts.

Anyone who blames their own financial incompetence on the government of the day is hunting for scapegoats.

I guess time will tell. It certainly doesn't feel as bad as the one in the early 90s, and I still see plenty of people pouring expensive drinks down their neck on a friday night, and buying expensive needless tat in town on a saturday, so people can't be that hard up.

I guess peopel will only be hard up if they have no job and have a mortgage to pay.

Those in work who remain in work should see it out.

Yes that's right, I've forgotten how brilliant it was to live under Tory rule for eigtheen years, when there was no government borrowing needed and the hospitals and schools were like shiny new pins and where unemployment in the north was not a price worth paying to the likes of Norman Lamont, no siree.

Those in work are generally better off than they were before, with interest rates low, mortgage repayments are lower for many people.

I never thought I'd say this but I agree with both DISA and Andy Gilder at the same time!



Everyone is getting worked up and angry because theres a recession and because of the expenses. And because the media in this country is incredibly biased.

The recession isnt as bad as previous ones and the expenses issue has been happily going on for decades without the Telegraph getting all high and mighty (it would be interesting to see what some journalists have claimed for in their expenses too!). Whether Ouzo was just fishing for bites or what I dont know but I would imagine only a tiny minority of the MP's expenses claims could be classed as fraud.

Labour have done a cr@p in getting their message across and have been continually shooting themselves in the foot with the likes of ID cards.

I'll probably end up voting Lib Dem, not because I particularly approve of them but in a desperate attempt to keep the Tories out in my area. I'll do the same at the General Election as well. If the Tories get in then they'll ruin the country again.

I agree rob re-labour and how they've imploded.
I grew up in thatchers/tory reign and i would never want to return to those days but i think the government have handed the reigns to cameron by their own dithering and incompetence!
I also think it's too late for labour to turn it around!!

Sadly someone had to mop up the mess of the previous socialist regime which had been in power for the previous 15 years - Heath doesn't count he was further left than Wilson. Didn't see the IMF on the horizon during the Tory reign, didn't see a bunch of unelected Union leaders running the country - you could at least get your bins emptied and bury your dead under Thatcher - it wasn't all a bundle of fun under the previous Labour lot!!!

What concerns me more than anything with regards to Labour is;

Massive increase in the public sector with little tangible evidence of any returns for this increase

The massive increases in total taxation since labour has taken charge - I suppose this and the above point are linked

The huge levels of debt this country now has and how will this impact on the future lives of my children and their standard of living

The fact that they were not prepared to keep their promises on an EEC referendum says much about their itengrity. As does the employment of McGrane as a PR spokesman

The general lack of life experience of the top labour brass - the majority of which have never had a job outside of politics - are these really the correct people to be in charge?

Yeah I'd agree with all that.
I'd also agree with DISA in that I think Gordon Brown could be a good PM, the problem is he's surrounded himself with idiots in some cabinet positions and in his own staff.

Indeed. Were the previous government all that keen on regulating lending and borrowing? Not my recollection, young as I was.

On the expenses thing, I do think it's a big deal, even if it isn't an election issue, affecting as it does, all the major parties. It is also in the majority of cases, not fraud. It does however, reflect a disturbing lack of responsibility in people elected to a position of great trust by their constituents. There has been a problem with the laying of rules and monitoring. That meant they COULD do what they've done. But I can't accept that any of them thought that it was an appropriate thing to do. Either they were intentionally milking the system for all they could, in which case they're not fit to be in a position to be trusted to regulate state legislation and so forth, or they accidentally claimed for all sorts of stuff they weren't entitled to and they are simply not competent to be given that sort of responsibility. It will have no impact on how I vote, but it is one of a number of things which impact on how I view the whole process and system, which is in need of a serious shake-up. Party political point scoring is now, and indeed has been for a long time, so central to their activity that I don't think many, if any, of the people in power still have a real grasp on what they were elected to do: represent the people.

*breathes*

Gordon Brown's biggest problem is that he has no charisma and is not a leader. He is a competent politician and a relaible public figure, more so than anybody who might replace him. That was fine as chancellor, and would be in any other cabinet post. The trouble is that being PM also requires you to lead both the party and the country. You have to inspire and people have to follow where you lead. Gordon Brown is not somebody who commands that.

How about the fact you can go to a hospital and get treated a hell of a lot quicker and get a hell of a lot better treatment than before.
Both my brother and me have needed knee ops in the last few years. We both got the op within 2 weeks of being referred. Back in the good old 80's my mum needed a similar operation. It took her over 6 months to get it.

My gran is virtually housebound and a nurse comes to see her every day including weekends, as do 2 carers per day. All free of charge.

My old secondary school is another good example. During my and my older brothers time there which includes 6th form, the most that was spent on it was a new portakabin for science lessons.
It is now being re-built. As are the other schools in York that had been underfunded.
Another great example is York District Hospital, the amount of rebuilding going on there is huge, compared to the little outhouse for the Works Dept that the Tories kindly built, which is now falling down of course.

If the Tories had spent a little on, you know, normal people during their last reign in office then maybe Labour wouldn't have had to spend as much now.


How would letting the banks & car industry go under and having much worse hospitals and schools do to the future lives of your children and their standard of living?

As opposed to the masses of integrity and experience Cameron and his set of w@nkers on the front bench of the Tory party have?

I'd agree that he has no charisma but I dont think that excludes you from being a leader. He could be a great leader and PM, which he showed when he first became PM and he was incredibly popular to start with. Since then I think he's made a few big mistakes (especially sticking by the ID cards and 30 day detention issues) and has been advised incredibly badly by incredibly bad advisors. And for the love of God he should never ever smile on TV!

Quite so. The vast majority of them wouldn't even have a clue that one's moat needs a periodic cleaning.

at the people who think the Tories will improve anything. Having said that Labour are disgrace too. Continuing gradual privatisation of the NHS, PFI scheme, pushing down of public sector wages, massive increases in tax which we don't seem to see much for our money. Not forgetting the trillions of pounds spent on 2 pointless wars, and billions spent renewing our nuclear weapons programme.

It seems the patern over the years has been the government does alright for 2 or 3 years and then spends the next 5 ruining the country, only for the next Government to come in and do the same thing. Maybe its not the Governing party that needs to change but the system? Could the 2 party system have become dogmatic?

I think Trimalcio summed it up pretty well.

I have voted, and have voted for my usual party, although I do have to say that my hand hovered over one of the 'minority' parties for a while!

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No way hose!!!!!

That's actually one's own MP you are discussing there. The unfortunate thing is stick a blue rosette on a hatstand down here and it'd get itself elected in his place at the next election.

That's about right coming from you.

Just what I expected, from the man who thinks people from Turkey are vile.

I'll be voting for one of the minor parties later. It depends which candidate has the best name, it's just like placing bets on racing.