I remember a few years back when the season opened with the Magic weekend at Cardiff and Wakey played Cas with James Child as referee and he managed to award around 40 penalties in what wasn't even a dirty game. Think he had a few more games around that time when the penalty count in his games were really high, and most of the time for no apparent reason.

That actually wasn't a bad year, as the experiment worked to a degree. After about 8 rounds, all clubs seriously cleaned up their act for rest of season. Certainly there is a lot more "professional" offences happening in recent years, as refs have shown more leniency.

I always feel that James Child is trying to impress the referees boss with his repertoire of penalties (offside at the kick off,or striking in the scrum etc).Ultimately there's usually too many penalties in his matches which detracts from the spectacle.Not a fan of him at all,his matches seem to be the ones that are in danger of boiling over.

Evening Tad, I think you may have to do some back tracking re the "idiot" issue, I was merely responding in kind to you calling me an idiot earlier in this debate. You may also have to do a bit of back tracking with your"deluded" jibe at me. If you hadn't noticed, video referees have been ordered to ignore any forward passes when a try is sent upstairs to them. They can penalise offside, obstruction, knock on, etc, etc etc, but have been told they must ignore the Rugby League law regarding a forward pass, so there you go. I am happy to debate with you on your terms Tad, call me an idiot, I'm more than happy to reciprocate, I"ll store my "deluded" jibe for use in a later debate

I don't think refs cheat all the time, but they do ignore clear infringements that should be penalised. I'm from the Rudolf Guiliani school of thinking, broken windows theory or "zero tolerance". Human beings by nature take advantage of any weakness, give then an inch, you know the rest. If it takes every offence to be punished in order to restore any semblance of compliance on the field, then so be it. Just how far do you think Dom Manfredi would have moved off the mark before Silverwood pinged him, he was already in the bar at the Bridge Inn at Kirkstall. It's human nature, let them move a yard forward, they'll want two, let them stand two yards offside, they'll want three. The reason why so many pages are spent debating ref issues is down to the RFL and the refs themselves. I watched a DVD of the '72 championship Final the other day, nobody lurching forward at the play the ball, nobody encroaching offside, nobody layed on top of a tackled player whilst turning round looking at the ref waiting for him to shout "moooove ", just players playing the game controlled by a ref without an agenda. The RFL and refs are weak people, we need a Guiliani in control to restore order. Nigel Wood is a man of straw.

video refs have never been allowed to judge on forward passes due to camera angles

HTH

From limited experience of his refereeing, he came across as somewhat aloof, arrogant and incapable of working with the players to ensure a better game rather than being a stickler for detail. Not a great communicator in the way that say Ganson could be - when he wanted to.

I've just re-read Kev's 2003 diary and it's interesting because he talks about the officiating of Ganson and Silverwood. Nothing really seems to have changed in 12 years with Silverwood still giving highly questionable decisions against us.

There's always going to be room for interpretation and that adds somewhat to the sporting spectacle. But Kev said in 2003 that he worries that the standard of refereeing could drive fans away from the sport. Whilst I can't imagine people not buying a season ticket because of the officials, I've known of people not to attend certain matches because of who is taking charge.

Whilst mistakes will happen (we wouldn't want robots to officiate) there needs to be accountability for some of the glaringly bad calls. Until we have a strong pool of top refs, it won't happen. Its a real shame.

Although I'm sure you'd see less laying on at the ptb if James Child had armed police to do his bidding, I don't see the RFL adopting this approach any time soon



Then again, it would be a vast improvement on video refereeing.

Are you for real or are you just trolling?

If you penalised every offence you would not have a game - you may have a point if they clamped down then maybe there would be a greater observance of the rules but that is no guarantee. To take your Guillani point, he clamped down on the mafia - did it actually make a difference - no one iota. The mafia was still as prevalent all he way through his time in charge they, were just cleverer and that is what the players will do they all adapt.

One thing that has changed since 1972 is the decrease in out an out thuggery that littered the game in those days. The bias of the likes of Robin Whitfield makes Silverwood look like a saint by comparison. Yes you may have more yes sir no sir in those days but the referees weren't better for being jumped up draconian school teachers. You are comparing part time players and a spped of game that was pedestrian by comparison to todays speed of play.

The idea the any referee cheats is not worthy of comment.

I trust your wife - if you have one - enjoys her days in the dungeon - you seem a very bull-like character

I actually felt some sympathy for Manfredi on Friday.

Yes he stepped forward off the mark, but IIRC wasn't there a tackler right behind him and on the mark where the ball should have been played?

He was trying to play the ball quickly, couldn't because he had an opposition player directly behind him so stepped forward - almost doing the Leeds player a favour in the process by stopping him getting penalised for not clearing the ruck.

Certainly not the worst move off the mark I've seen this season, and probably not much different to plenty that will go unpenalised for the rest of the year

I reckon I have seen well over a thousand games. Never in all that time I have bothered to find out who the ref is, often I would be hard pressed to remember who the ref was after the game. It is so ludicrous as to be hilarious that someone who miss a game for such a reason.

I agree, though it didn't stop me cheering the decision. It would have been fair to make him move back & play from the mark. It doesn't necessarily give the attack an advantage being closer to the defensive line.

No but it does give them an advantage to make the markers move one way to avoid being not square.

I can see why Silverwood gave it, it's one of the more blatant examples of moving off the mark, I wish the refs would penalise more of them.

If players are consistently moving forward into the markers then refs should penalise it more.
Certain players are renowned for it ( to me at least) Shenton of Cas being one.
What I'd like to see at the start of games is offences being penalised in less critical areas of the field & treat both sides the same.
Far too often in my judgement offences are overlooked then the same offence is penalised in a critical area i.e. close to the opponents line when it has potentially a much greater impact on the outcome of a game.
Arguably Manfredi's offence falls into that category.

Moving off the ball happens in at least 50% of all PTB if the marker stands steady it can't happen - as the defending team you need to ensure your first maker is in tight enough to stop the attackers moving forward

But that gives you a less favourable angle if the dummy half scoots.

If you take a pace or two back, you give yourself more chance of making the tackle on a dummy half run, and a better view of what's going on behind the ruck in terms of runners coming on the inside ball or drop off.

I'd say a large percentage of cases of "moving off the mark" come about because the ball carrier has won the collision and has to get over/round the bodies of the defenders so he can play the ball. It's a bit harsh to start penalising them for it.

Isn't the second man there to assist in that area - surely giving the attackers more room is counter productive, isn't the point about line speed to cramp their space? Surely at elite levels it shouldn't be so rigid that one marker goes one way and the other the other? Both markers should be alert to what is happening it isn't as if the markers can't see the first receiver.

He is, but if you're locked in at marker there's no advantage to be right in the face of the player playing the ball. You've got nowhere to go other than sideways.

If you both take a step backwards, then your first pace can be forward and you can meet the ball carrier head on rather than side on if they run close to the play the ball.

Having your markers split sides is just covering the bases. It stops both of them over-chasing the play and leaving a massive gap in behind the play the ball, Like having players on the posts at a corner in football.

In which event penalise the tacklers for not moving away quickly enough.
Plus make sure that the play the ball is exactly that i.e. the tackled player must propel the ball backwards with his foot. They do that in the NRL.
Then the ref &/or the linesmen can see exactly if the defence is onside when the ball is played.

I thought the same at the time

You're asking the tackled player to take a risk though. Does he put the ball down amidst the bodies, try to play it and hope the referee gives the penalty, or does he just step to one side or forward a pace to get a clean play the ball and allow his dummy half to get out with the markers still out of position?

I am not sure what you were watching with that particular play the ball. He didn't just take a yard. He crawled forward first to create the situation where a Leeds player is behind, then he stepped further forward when he got to his feet. It was clear cheating from the player in question to gain an advantage. Rightly penalised.

Good coaching practice is to teach your team to not get tied up at marker, the 'tight 6' markers and As and Bs work as a unit with markers typically splitting 1st marker usually nominating to go the direction closest to their usual defensive position. Standing too close to the PTB at 1st marker is poor practice as AG says.

Yep. There was a habit a year or so ago of markers standing too far back from the play the ball to the point of being only a couple of metres ahead of the defensive line (IIRC on rare occasions the ref penalised them) but it was for exactly the reason you state, to work together with the A's and B's. And now most markers will take a step or 2 backwards immediately after the play the ball in order to close the diagonal gap between them and the A defender.
Usually being tight at marker makes you easier to run past either by the acting half scoot or a quick play to a tight runner.
It's partly why the player playing the ball moves forward or to the side, in order to try and lock in a marker, either tight or directionally.