Are you suggesting one of our reserve hookers can fill JP's defensive boots then?

You know exactly what I'm suggesting, but I doubt it's worth the time engaging with you further on it.

Quite allot of finger pointing on here after the game and that’s what this place is for but nobody has really picked up why we lost the game. Zak Hardaker had a nightmare – two of the tries were 100% down to him and that cost us 12 points (not sure if all the conversions were made).
Also fans favourite Kallum Watkins wasn’t really up to much. The break from Percival - Watkins was just behind him and had every chance to make the tackle but was either lazy or blowing too much to make the effort. Although Vickery was ok he didn’t really put the foot down to catch him either unless he clearly cannot put his foot down faster than Ablett.

Agree with this and the rest of your appraisal of last night's match.

Not watched the game back yet but on a couple of occasions when we were defending our try-line JJB seemed to fly out of the line, miss the tackle and leave a yawning gap.

It happens all the time, other matches this season and matches last season also. Saints actually targetted it yesterday, you could see it clearly.

On a slightly seperate note, does anybody think we really missed a trick by not managing to sign Alex Walmsley?

Why? He wouldn't have got a game.

I don't know if walmsley was ever on our wanted list but he looked impressive last night, as Amor has done in previous games at Headingley.

He was, I think most SL clubs wanted him, and to me he's on another level to Amor.

He could be anything. An absolute monster of a player and should only get better.

Hard being a rugby player. JJB was one of our better players on the night and he was at fault for the 2 soft scores in the 1st half IIRC.

Worked overtime in defence didn't he? Putting some big hits on, forcing errors and winning a penalty. Or we could just not acknowledge that?

Leeds looked better with Kylie and Bails doing the business down the middle, the replacements couldn't maintain the momentum that was set. Having said that Saints helped themselves by taking the God awful Perry off and they brought on a bit of talent!

JC-When have the "rotationalists" suggested JP miss games against ST's then?
No can't remember or more to the point it clearly never happened!
The point those of us (The Coach and Skipper included pre-season) was that there should be more rotation and when mentioning specific games we suggested teams ,like Salford ,Broncos and Cas (CC).
So lets not get into another pointless "they said i said told you so" BS match.
As for last night i don't for 1 minute see how Vickery could be blamed but watching another u19 game (we lost 24-26) he has nothing that Duckworth ,Handley ,Sunley or even Watson dont have.
Hardaker ,Sinfield ,Mcguire Watkins(defensively) Jjb(defence) had mares imo.
Far too often our pack received awful hospital passes from ALL 3 HB's and our shape with and without the ball was awful.
Back to the Makinson try debate i thought Watkins had Percival lined up and Hardaker could have pointed he'd take the support runner making the call easy for Watkins to try and take Percival we see many seasoned FB's do this and it normally works.
I thought Achurch and Moore offered little but again had a lack of decent ball and game-time and why bring Sutcliffe on and have him running it in on the 1st or 2nd tackle??
Our centres got 2 decent passes and scored but then nothing!!
ST's deserved their win they ran much harder and tackled well in the 2nd half but we look like we could possibly about to hit another form loss.

I can't understand why Vickery is being singled out for so much flak (apart from the usual suspects who like their scapegoats). The long distance try was as much the fault of Watkins who left it far too late to commit to his opposite number despite having the pace that Vickery lacks. Vickery's performance had a minimal bearing on the result - unlike the two tries Hardaker let in. That was pretty much the worst game I've seen Hardaker play for Leeds. Ryan Hall was also less effective than Vickery carting the ball in and similarly did nothing in attack, despite his lauded combination with Moon. We should be far more worried about Hall's form than what a make-shift winger does. Would BJB won us the game? Probably not.

As has been pointed out McGuire and Sinfield were poor again, and Burrow wasn't much better. JJB did some eye-catching stuff going forward but his defensive mis-reads cost us two tries close to the line IIRC. Most importantly our goal-line defence and discipline were shocking at times.

On a positive note Delaney was immense. I just hope his injury problems haven't been made worse by flogging him like this. Good to see Bailey step up for a change and mostly keep his discipline. When he left the field it all went to pot.

Thank god Wilkin doesn't play for us - how embarrassing for England if this guy gets selected. A poor man's Kevin Sinfield if ever there was one. That said, a shame the real Kevin Sinfield didn't stand up last night.

Can anyone tell me the last time Maguire sinfield & burrow were rested or rotated is there a clique in the dressing room ?

Bailey was responsible for one of the few quality Leeds' moments last night. After Wilkin had committed his second high tackle in quick succession the big number sixteen, calmly held up two fingers to referee Thaler to make sure he'd noted what was going on and Thaler duly issued a gentle warning. Nice to see the new subtle approach from Bailey while Wilkin goes ballistic.

It says much about the Leeds performance that that was a highlight.

__________

Defence is a team game where individual hero attempts rarely work for long as opposition coaches wise up and good ball handlers deliver quick passes to leave the chargers looking stupid as they take neither man nor ball.

This is different to the collective quick line speed on goal-line defence which with higher energy levels being available has been fairly successful in minimising space and time on the ball this season. Those levels now appear to be draining somewhat not least IMO because the coach has little confidence to utilise the full squad he's been given - despite the CEO in pre-season claiming it to be the best he's ever assembled for Leeds.

__________

In the post match on field interviews - Burrow and McDermott showed the unity of the Headingley brains trust in full spin. One thought Leeds had taken their foot off the gas while the other thought they hadn't and accused people of using tired cliches when they've nothing else to say.

No doubt Burrow will be back on message this morning.

Who actually rests their half backs? What benefit would there be in this?

If other players are better in their positions (in the opinion of the people who actually pick the team) then by all means make changes. But I can't think of any benefits to squad rotation for its own sake in those positions and I don't think any team does it.

Tony Smith at Warrington appeared to take that approach with Briers at times last season to see and test out other options at half-back. He used to do things similar to that at Leeds such as playing Lauitiiti and Senior on the right during parts of games to see if they had that flexibility - giving the coach more options.

How do you know if a player is capable of taking on extra responsibility in the heat of battle without giving him the opportunity to do so? Having fulcrum players like Briers or Sinfield is great when they're on form but what happens when that form temporarily deserts them - you need contingencies and I'd have thought the best way to have them is to form and execute a plan to get there rather than taking the 'we'll cross that bridge if and when we get there' approach.

Kirke I thought stepped into the breach left by Peacock last night to a degree. Good minutes and good involvement but had Peacock been available Kirke would have probably been lucky to get one fifteen minute spell.

I am concerned at our slowness in getting the ball out wide,in Watkins and Moon we have two exciting strike players we should be giving them quality ball in space. Burrows running across the field usually ends up with a pass to a virtually stationary player. Looking at some of the passing moves across the line of Wigan has impressed me,probably Harris is behind it.
As I have said on several occasions the balance of the team is not right,I would get burrow back to scrum half ASAP.
We are still in a good position in the table, and a good team and coaches should always learn from their mistakes.
Certainly Hardaker should be reflecting on some of his errors.
I am surprised that Ryan Hall seems to receiving some adverse comments, he never had a decent pass all night, once again because we don't spin the ball out wide quickly he is not getting any quality ball.
I was pleased with the size of the crowd, especially after warringtons poor turn out for the hull game,over at wire they seem to be losing their appetite for the game. Lots of complaints about lack of atmosphere etc etc, its usually a good atmosphere at hq when a top team is in town. Step forward the southstanders and take a bow.

Oh I don't know. How he picked out the Leeds defenders on the full each time with his downfield kicks was a staggering achievement.

He's an outstanding second row forward, but poor scrum half. If we ever played Delaney or JJB at halfback, you'd have something to compare to.

Burrow was absolutely atrocious last night, I cannot understand the decision to drop McShane. Poor distribution (how many times did we get a short ball to the next man instead of spreading it wide), fewer tackles requiring Sinfield to do more work, which given we were without Ablett and Peacock was suicidal.

Hall now seems to be being used just as an extra second row rather than a winger, the number of carries backs are doing returning the ball is stupidly high. One time we had a set off a kick return of Vickery, Hall, Hardaker, Watkins & JJB followed by the kick. What's the point having the bloody forwards on the field if they won't take the ball up?

Also, it's time for Vickery to go. He's got no pace and nobody passes to him, so sides know that they can short-staff their left hand side as we're effectively a man short out there, allowing them to shut down Hall & Moon far more easily. Needs replacing with Duckworth or Chisholm, at least as an unknown quantity they'll attract defenders & the ball, which Vickery won't.

Side for Wigan:

1. Hardaker
27. Chisholm
3. Watkins
4. Moon
5. Hall
13. Sinfield
6. McGuire
8. Leuluai
9. McShane
10. Bailey
11. Jones-Buchanan
15. Delaney
18. Clarkson

7. Burrow
17. Kirke
19. Achurch
21. Moore

No sinfield on the wing and kylie at 6 this time?

Wow. You noticed an obvious typo. Well done, I'm happy for you. If you work hard you can even reach Lawrie's level of noticing that some words are different to other words.