I am also equally underwhelmed by McDonnell. I think someone posted stats of 4 drives for 23 metres against Warrington which is shocking.

Is it him choosing to not be involved, or is he being advised / coached not to do the hard yards?

Bizarrely it seems the backs have to do most of the dirty work these days (as well as score long range tries), and the forwards don't seem to do much more than tackle (passively).

McDonnell is good but his game needs to go up another notch for a club with our ambitions. He's not the only one mind - the same is true of the likes of Cam Smith, Oledski, Holroyd, O'Connor etc.

A player like Handley has improved significantly this season - others need to do so too, and impose themselves on games more often for longer periods. All are young enough to do this, if the desire is there.

Made no secret that I really rate McDonnell, and he has his best years ahead of him. For me he's the grafter, and I think he is physically bigger and more technically sound than Bentley in that role; although Bentley is probably more mobile and fills gaps in very well. Like a few other players, he would benefit from us signing one or two other really high quality forwards to distribute the load.

One of RS's better signings IMO.

There was a fabulous interview with Handley on Radio Leeds on Sunday. The work he is putting in mentally & physically is incredible. It's no wonder he has improved so much.

Yes it was excellent , a few others need to do the same !

I don't think its individual players alone though, its the whole tactical setup which isn't working. Peter Smith, in his usual 'I don't want to upset the club/coach' way alluded to that today - including the short kick-off nonsense.

Some of what Rohan wants to see is laudable - open, free flowing games - but he needs to stop hoping that everyone else will come round to his view of the world and adapt to what actually happens on the pitch, where, rather unshockingly to anyone who has watched more than one game, possession and field position matter. That means not making errors, not gifting possession and field position through short kick offs and the like, and trying to play the game at the right end of the field through defence and a good kicking game. Ask Wayne Bennett, Craig Bellamy or any other coach, and that would be where they'd start.

Rohan developed this style on the run in 2022 and it was remarkably successful as it was different and other teams couldn't quite work it out. But as we saw last year, giving away field position encourages even the worst teams to think they have a chance, and practically invites better ones to give you a thumping. Its been worked out, and now is a weakness rather than a strength.

If its not a deliberate tactic that's just as big an indictment on Smith (or even bigger) because it means the players aren't doing what he wants them to. Either way I don't see him lasting beyond this year if he cannot or will not make changes. We saw last year how the season can really slip away if you don't keep picking up wins, as we kept waiting for the magical turnaround, but it never happened. We were 'competing', or 'in the contest', but consistently losing too many games. Reading the room (i.e. this forum and elsewhere) the fanbase has zero patience for a repeat of last season's damp squib of an effort.

I just feel like you're all working yourself into a frenzy over "passive" defence - I think RS coaches for energy efficiency and trying to work the percentages at times, but something's going wrong in either the application of this, or the players' execution (i.e. errors).

Short kick-offs: favourite topic. So it does actually work to regain possession and position sometimes, and the win is significant when you pull it off. Statistically you take some losses turning the ball over on the opposition 40m rather than 20m. It's less far for your team to run up in D. It legitimately has some benefits. The problem has come where we have failed to defend the opposition coming up with the ball off the kick, or where we have overused the tactic/used it in the wrong situations. Whether this is coached or whether it's poor play selection by players none of us here really know. Miller attempting a 10m short kick-off from a drop-out when we're under pressure is crazy - I don't know what's going wrong there.

Last season we lost Leeming early to a spat dummy, we had Austin clearly causing problems throughout until it all came to a head, and MacDonald just disappeared (who does that?). We also had an epic injury list. I'm not saying RS got everything right either, but again there were legitimate reasons for poor results last season which were specific to last season. This forum is going to be pretty dire if we have about five threads running at the same time all year, each of which is ten blokes complaining about Rohan Smith.

Spot on.

Good points well made Jim. I think in general a lot of fans are just fatigued by the last few years and the very poor season last year, which as you say had various mitigating circs. RS simply has to deliver a good competitve season this year as most of us on here agreed at the season start, even the most glass half full people on here agreed. So far it's looking pretty precarious, we're 8th, lost 3 home games on a row, out of the cup and have key players like Handley injured and are light up front... it's 50/50 at the moment where this season is going and many fans are losing faith in RS. There's not a fans forum in the world that doesn't moan about their coaches/managers/Chief Execs etc... it's just human nature and sport.

The team could well click into gear and go on a good run and get into top 5 top 4 you never know, it would take a lot of injury luck as we're light in depth in the backs and up from but lets hope so..

Yep agree mate. I just think it’s still too early to judge RS on this season - we’ve had a couple of wins and decent results, then a couple of ordinary performances and a bad one against Wire.

I’m not entirely convinced he’s got the squad right this year still, question for me is whether it’s close enough to find some form, or close enough to add 2-3 good players next year and bridge the gap.

I think we’re all sick of mediocrity on the pitch over a very long period of time… In fact at times mediocrity would have been a gift!

I wouldn't say I'm in a "frenzy", but I dislike the way we are defending. This line speed is way too slow.
The successful teams, at the top of the table, have far greater line speed than us and put pressure on the opposition.
Go figure.

And that's a long list of excuses for an awful season last year.
Fair enough on most of them.

RS now has his own team and we have spent heavily on bringing in the players he wanted.
We have had the odd injury, but have mostly had a comparatively pretty fit squad to choose from.
We're 8th.
What are this seasons excuses?

It is far worse the two of you trying to defend the indefensible

Deeply flawed way of defending, bored and dismayed seeing it every week.

Trigger needs to be pulled on Rohan.

Yeah agree on the squad. The balance doesn’t look right overall as it stands which is hugely frustrating. Smith has put this team together and needs to get a tune out of it. I think on paper it’s good enough (injuries permitting) to get top 4 but i have a suspicion we will fall well short

Kaeru - I was definitely on the side of understanding issues last year which made the whole season an almost impossible challenge. I don't think a lot of people understand how hard it was for Rohan to manage a squad through last season when he knew the squad was facing a major revamp in the off-season.

But we're near the bottom of the league in attacking sets, are struggling to score more than 2 tries a game, and play far too much of every game at the wrong end of the field. I'd say the issues are more fundamental than errors, its certainly not injuries either. With quite a different squad this list of issues is the same as last season.

On short kick-offs, I'd say that's just one example of something that distracts from the basics. Never mind the stats (which are highly debatable given that most teams only try them in dire circumstances near the end of a game, so there's a small and biased sample), it speaks of a mindset of hoping to get a cheap win of possession, rather than focusing on kicking deep and building pressure through defensive hard work. It also ignores issues such as the other team making a mistake direct from the kick off or in an early tackle - in any event near their own end. Short drop outs are different - there are valid reasons for trying them, which is why they've almost become standard.

I just don't understand why there's so much reluctance to acknowledge the fact that whether its passive defence or any other reason, we are losing the field position battle far too often to give us much of a chance. Playing at the wrong end of the field just invites defeat.

Games can't be won without the ball and field position. Regardless of how much possession we have, if we're playing most of the game in our own 30 we aren't going to score enough to win enough.

I think we’re disagreeing on the reasons why we are in our own red zone too much of the time rather than how bad it is to be there.

I don’t think our defence is as “passive” as is being made out, on the whole. I think it’s become a bandwagon. I think lots of fans have had enough of RS.

I’m not saying he will or should be coach into 2025 yet; but personally my mind isn’t made up on him. We changed McDemrott. We changed Furner. We changed Agar. Where has it got us? We just change the coach every year or two until magical things happen?

I think the squad is a hell of a lot closer to where it needs to be now than when RS took over. I can see us competing with the big boys IF (big if) we can find and attract 2-3 real high quality additions. I coukdn’t say that at any time in the last 7 years.

I agree with you Jim, but I think it's going to take the emergence of more young talent from within the club (not just signings) if we're really going to turn things around.

Too early to write off this season though.

Yep, you need at least a handful of your stars to be from your academy, preferably in the pivot positions, as they tend to cost less on the cap. I'm not really sure we can afford to bring in more stars from outside the club, unless players leave

Didn't sky say we were 300k under budget ?.

Either way, end of this season we should have the cap space from Olpherts,Fusitua and Donaldson plus any left from Myler and cap above if true.
Maybe even money from Martin if he wants to move.

More than enough for the three players we need ( of high quality, no projects) to balance the squad

Quote ="Emagdnim13"Didn't sky say we were 300k under budget ?. Either way, end of this season we should have the cap space from Olpherts,Fusitua and Donaldson plus any left from Myler and cap above if true. Maybe even money from Martin if he wants to move. More than enough for the three players we need ( of high quality, no projects) to balance the squad'" We have the joint 4th highest wage bill according to this graphic from sky. We're spending the same has Saints and Huddersfield, but less than Warrington, Catalans, and Wigan. https://twitter.com/johnnyddavidson/sta ... 5X3cw&s=19

Quote ="Emagdnim13"Didn't sky say we were 300k under budget ?. Either way, end of this season we should have the cap space from Olpherts,Fusitua and Donaldson plus any left from Myler and cap above if true. Maybe even money from Martin if he wants to move. More than enough for the three players we need ( of high quality, no projects) to balance the squad'" We have the joint 4th highest wage bill according to this graphic from sky. We're spending the same has Saints and Huddersfield, but less than Warrington, Catalans, and Wigan. https://twitter.com/johnnyddavidson/sta ... 5X3cw&s=19

Yes in theory but a lot then hangs on how good those ex academy lads actually are..

I don’t know if Rohan Smith has encouraged a “passive” style of defence and if he has actually coached systems to that effect. If he has he should be on his bike right now because it’s the daftest thing I’ve ever heard in my life and it’s clearly not working. I’m thinking we look passive because the players aren’t physically strong enough and lack endurance therefore they end up on the back foot getting steamrollered towards their own line. It’s the same when we are trying to get off our own line, like little boys in year 3 trying to compete and get past the bigger lads in year 5. I think if anything is being coached to be “passive” it’s our attacking strategy in the opponents half, and that’s what annoys me about Rohan Smith. The buck stops with him on that one, and that’s what annoys a lot of fans.

Quote ="Jack Burton"We have the joint 4th highest wage bill according to this graphic from sky. We're spending the same has Saints and Huddersfield, but less than Warrington, Catalans, and Wigan. https://twitter.com/johnnyddavidson/sta ... 5X3cw&s=19'" We might have to bite the bullet and spend the most for a couple of years... I'm not for buying success, but there is still this little hump of quality we're struggling to get over. There is some talent in the youth for sure, but I'm not sure I see another Danny Mags or Adrian Morley in there currently.

Quote ="Jack Burton"We have the joint 4th highest wage bill according to this graphic from sky. We're spending the same has Saints and Huddersfield, but less than Warrington, Catalans, and Wigan. https://twitter.com/johnnyddavidson/sta ... 5X3cw&s=19'" We might have to bite the bullet and spend the most for a couple of years... I'm not for buying success, but there is still this little hump of quality we're struggling to get over. There is some talent in the youth for sure, but I'm not sure I see another Danny Mags or Adrian Morley in there currently.

Our line speed has been p* poor at times, I don't like that don't get me wrong. But it hasn't been all the time - our D looks worse IMO primarily because errors and penalties keep putting us in rubbish positions.

We have had spells in attack where we end sets better than last year with a nice attacking kick, but I thought against Wire we weren't as good - aside from the nice kicks from Croft to Roberts and Frawley for Newman.