Moon got the Red because he was stood more sideways on & it was deemed leading with the shoulder mate.

Fair enough. I thought a Red was harsh for that at the time too as the player was again falling into the tackle.

Wouldn't rule out the end result too of the contact. Whilst the Hull player was down he wasn't flat out unlike the Saints player on the receiving end of Moon's (Percival was it?) and didn't he have to leave the field.

Not saying it's correct but refs do react to the injury suffered when making their decision. If Burrow had stayed down and needed treatment or had to go off I wouldn't be surprised to see a different action taken against Watts,

He did stay down and did have treatment.

For about 15 secs and just a quick how are you check by the physio, he was up quickly enough to chat to the ref and take the tap. I mean in terms of the Percival one, he properly stayed down and needed lengthy treatment and wasn't he even stretchered or helped off too.

He was down for longer than 15 secs, granted he wasn't down for long but it was ovious that Watts had caught and hurt him and more importantly at least, had stopped Burrow from cruising under the sticks for a certain try.

I knew Cobb wouldn't send Watts off and knew that it was more of a grab than swinging arm and despite the usual calls for a sending off I never thought Watts would get see red, though I was surprised he didn't see yellow.

There was a older guy stood behind me who claimed to be an ex professional ref and he said he would have marched him for it, though I knew the "Grab" defence would be used.

Yes i remember now.Play was stopped against Saints and the constant SKY replays on the big screen straight after probably heavily influenced the ref to make the decision he did that night.

Wally Lewis was actually pretty quick TBH
I recall watching the Aussies training back in 82 and he won every 400m race with ease and was also up there in the 100m sprints
Admittedly he didn't look quick but he is still the best player that i have ever seen in my life time

Sorry to derail the thread

I seem to remember that one, but dont think it was last year, maybe the year before. Wasn't percival taking the ball in near his line, someone (Ryan Bailey I think) made a good tackle taking his legs and meaning instead of Moon making contact with the chest area it hit him in the face.

I remember thinking it was a really harsh red at the time, especially given it all happened so quick, not giving Moon time to adjust, and the fact the ref (Silverwood?) was initially happy to play on.

On the Watts one, I thought it was lazy and deliberate, but not malicious. Probably should have gone to the bin, definitely not a red.

Regarding Achurch

Where does he actually fit into our side where he can be an effective asset and actually warrant a spot in the 17?

He clearly likes the wide running role but he cvlearly isn't capeable of defending that role and IMO he certainly doesn't relish the tough stuff that back rowers need to do
He always seems to leave a gap in defence that you could drive a bus through
I would compare him to the Champion shirt puller that was Andy Hay although he doesn't offer the offensive atributes that Hay did

But back then Hay had players that could cover for his turnstile defensive attempts with players like Morley, Farrell. Fleary, Newton and Glanville to do his dirty work

I don't think he does fit mate, If we had the likes of Ward, Ferres , Keinhorst (not having to cover centre) available he would be sat in the stands now imo. Makes sense to use a one of the experienced top earners during an injury crisis but he will be out of the squad once the injuries calm down and out of the picture all together come october.

I don't get the "grab" defence.

What relevance does whether you have an open hand or not have if you snot someone across the chin with your forearm?

Plenty of people get suspended for reckless challenges, so intent clearly isn't that much of an issue when it comes to handing out bans.

Watts knew what he was doing. He knew he was beaten and threw out a straight arm to make sure Burrow didn't get past him. To use a football analogy, he was out of control. Deserved a yellow as an absolute minimum. Cobb crapped out of it, simple as that. I'd bet if he had the same decision to make without the TV cameras there, he would have gone straight to his pocket.

IIRC was it Meli who got a five game ban for a similar sort of challenge in a Cup game at Hull KR the other year? Player stepped him and he just threw out a straight arm to the head.

I think we signed signed Achurch hoping for a big dynamic second row who could add something different to what was, and still is a pack full of grafters.

When he didn't make much of a dent in that role we tried him as a prop, after all he's a big old lump who should be able to make dents and provide an offload. With his history in the back row and centre as a youth he should have been able to do decent minutes too.

He promptly failed at that role, as well as visually and vocally telling us he doesn't really have the appetite for hard graft.

So now he has no place in our side, IMO.

Also makes you wonder if it is because it is Burrow and with his height, or lack of, a forward hitting Rob round the neck/mush would hit the majority of other players round shoulders/chest. very few of the challenges to his head ever see a player get a card. I'm not saying it should matter, round the head is round the head no matter how big you are, but it could come into a refs thinking.

Just a thought.

Burrow would have been my MOM, offensively was a recurring threat in those conditions - hopefully a return to form.

Watkins offence is suffering week in, week out by an overloaded tackling stint caused by having too many fringe defenders, not least when Burrow and Lilley are on together - at times stood side by side. If Watkins is defending four in just as he was for the opening Hull try having to tackle Frank Pritchard his sharpness is going to suffer.

Watts was also 20 meters offside when the ball was played. Cobb had a way out of his big foul play decision, he could have just binned him for a professional foul. My view is he forgot about that altogether whilst worrying about and bottling the bigger call.

Ablett nails it if you listen to the audio. "Direct contact to the head". How many times do referees trot that one out in fake conversations with touch judges, aka video referees? They all forgot about it in this incident.

I'm with tvoc on Watkins. Its ridiculous to have a class outside back defending where he does. Its like using a Ferarri to plough a field. If anything I think most teams would do the opposite and try to minimise his defence so he is fresh with the ball.

Yep Watts being offside was a very poor miss from the officials. A sin binning if ever there was one.

As for the tackle, I can see the argument for a red card and to be fair to Stuart Cummings he was arguing for it to be red on Sky, though I'd have been more tempted to sin bin Watts. It deserved more than just a penalty though and the fact it was only a penalty, having halted our momentum/try scoring opportunity, was a big moment in the game.

Bang on.

That's exactly how I saw it. Burrow had done him and he threw the arm out to stop him any way he could. Burrow at full tilt heading for under the posts, stopped like that must be a card and I thought it was a pretty obvious red. I've seen plenty of reflex style grabs where the player genuinely hasn't time to think and sticks an arm out, but that was not one of them. Cobb bottled a fairly straightforward decision.

Yes, agree pretty much. Had it not been such an obvious scoring opportunity then I'd have said yellow. Then again, had it not been then I don't think Watts would have pulled the same trick.

As for Cobb, I'll cut him a little slack in that he's relatively inexperienced. His refereeing will come on no end if he admits to himself that he was overcautious and doesn't make the same mistake again.

Was Watts grab any worse than the high shot made by Ablett earlier that only resulted in a penalty?
I'm not sure & could see both being cited & leading to further punishment this week.

On the Ablett one I think you can hear the ref comment that the player was falling and to be careful with his tackles in future. Be surprised if it isn't looked at by the MRP, but I'd say it was penalty sufficient.

I agree. I know some might say at this level he can't make that mistake but refs aren't robots who'll get everything correct especially when you're still new to this level and knowing the sky cameras are there probably does add a pressure you need to get experienced to. I've seen much more experienced refs not show cards for much worst in the past.

Did Houghton bust Lilley's nose trying to stop him scoring his try?
Should that also merit a further look by the disciplinary people?
The end result is no different to both the Watt's & Ablett offence.