Vickery was probably in a better position than Watkins to get to Makinson but he didn't have the pace to keep up. I'll have to watch it again but that's what I thought at the time.

To me I think given time and a good training programme he could well be a decent back rower, I just don't see him ever making a first grad career on the wing at this level.

I'm going to pull you up on "letting his centre do the work for him" because first of all, his centre would have to get the ball!!

Secondly, he took the ball back hard and made some nice metres off the back of it. He didn't fall down and cower before he reached the line.

Thirdly, it's his 1st game in how long? There's going to be rust there. I thought he had a better game than Hall personally, but then again, I just watch what's in front of me and have no agenda towards any player (even Burrow).

How much ball did Hall have tonight?!

Well, Watkins did get the man, just as he was going over in fact



Second: he took the ball in but running into the centre of the pitch is a risk for him IMO

I don't either, but this isn't about what his future may hold. To blame him for the Makinson try is a bit of a stretch if you ask me. Makinson's probably in the top 5 quickest players in the league. As soon as Manu offloaded, we were always going to struggle. Just think of the tries we have scored like that with slower players than Percival and Makinson backing up the offload.

Think one word to some up tonight........ Complacency.

25 minutes we were fine (not great but fine), put in some good hits in defence, Saints looked woeful and barely capable of getting out of their half, Wilkin and Soliola looked more interested in roughing up through frustrating.......and we just thought 'job done'.

Then a collection of some of the softest decisions from Thaler (maybe McDermott shouldn't have had a go at him after the Catalans game) followed to 2 JJB rushing out of the defence mistakes pegs us back.

We come out 2nd half and Hardaker is still in the dressing room and we finally realise we're in a contest by the 60 mins mark but the problem is.....we've let Saints get their tails up and they weren't going to let it slip.

We switch off for a good 30 mins mid-game, and no its not as simple as saying "fatigue" like some buzzword as arguably the worst offender was Hardaker and he's not played enough to use that excuse.

We simply showed disrespect by not keeping the foot on the gas and killing them off completely......but the players wouldn't have been the only ones after 25 mins thinking "contest over".

Watkins is also the quickest player in the leeds first team so you would expect him to be near.

Hall had just as much ball as Vickery but the difference was Hall was looking dodgy under the high ball tonight whereas Vickery looked solid.

Are you having a go at him for running the ball back to centre field too? I didn't quite get what you meant. If you are, then seriously, that's exactly what Hall and the majority of wingers across the SL do every game. It's to give yourself more options on tackle 2, but I wouldn't expect you to know anything about what you have to do to set up the next few plays Loz

We created space for our centres twice all game, and it led to both scoring - unfortunately, we don't appear to know how to do this frequently.

For me, we need to be a little more 'old school' with our attack. We need to work on dragging the defence in with a couple of good hard drives, with some dummy runners, and then spread it wide. For me it all starts by having a deeper attacking line and running onto the ball more - the problem with playing such a flat attack is that if it breaks down, or the defences are particularly good or on top, it's difficult to create time or space.

In reality, with the general poor standards of centres in super league, simply having a deep line and letting Watkins/Moon run onto the ball at their opposing centre 1 on 1 would probably be enough.

I don't know if anyone mentioned it earlier in the thread but for me, the changing moment was when McGuire looked up and knocked on when we were mid move at 16-0. Had he have concentrated and managed to get the ball to Moon, we were looking at 22-0. As it was, he put it down and Saints scored a couple in the next 5 mins.

Momentum swing and possible game changer.

Awful. Both teams were poor with ridiculous elementary mistakes and would get duly hammered by .......erm Salford probably

If Leeds can't manage to get the ball to the wings (or even centres) with three playmakers, then there's clearly something wrong with the attack. Hall's now scored what one try in six games? Given that he's a class winger, and we've played some poor teams in that period, that's dreadful.

Not just that but these past few games i cant even recall him even having a chance in the opposing 25.The only time you see him these days is carting back kick returns.

It seems like such a waste when we have such weapons in Hall,Watkins and Moon that we cant get some paterns of play sorted out that give them the opportunity to display their talents.Instead we spend the most part trying to crash ball our way over the line or running up blind alleys with the likes of Burrow who is becoming way too obvious and Mcguire who, although still a decent half, is sadly not the player he once was without his blistering pace.

We have the three quarters,we need to start making better us of them.

After a decent run in form from the side, which included some outstanding defence, we have now hit a flat spot which together with injuries could take a few games to put right. What is obvious and key is the drop in form of our half backs Sinfield and McGuire who are creating very little. Burrow while not at his best was at least buzzing about and scored a good "hookers" try and assisted in Bailey's try.

Vickery had a solid game and was our best winger so should not be taking the flak. Similarly to blame a lack of rotation of the forwards for the defeat is a nonsense. Our best two forwards were Delaney and JJB (despite his running out of the line) Other than Kylie the rest of the pack should have been fresh but were dissappointing including Bailey who took his try well and had one aggressive run just after but other than that was pretty ineffective.

Saints have some speed and talent in their backs and their "flogged" old men Wellans and Wilkins were at the centre of their come back.

In the end it was Hardaker' blunders that made the difference in the scores. We now have to regroup, cut out the penalties and get our defence working again. The out of form players will play themselves back into form and the benchmen now have to stand up and be counted.

There was a giant Jamie Peacock size hole in our defence. Once that was discovered we were knackered. Up to that point I thought everyone did their job pretty well - some of our tackling was ferocious.

Vickery was not responsible for the defeat and had his best game in a Leeds shirt, in that he looked almost Conference standard, but in a game where neither winger got any ball while the "playmakers" were doing god-knows-what inside them and, understandably, St Helens elected to kick long towards the slow guy rather than the dangerous guy, giving Hall even less chance to shine, saying Vickery was our "best winger" redefines disingenuous. I don't recall any barely-chased breaks down Hall's side or any offloads from Vickery either.

I personally thought that Delaney looked injured and probably had one of his worse games I have seen this year from him. The fact that he was one of the better forwards highlights how poor the forwards were. I agree regarding JJB had a good game, and actually I thought bailey had one of his better games for us this season.

Hardaker had a bit of a mare. Vickery while not costing us the game I certainly don't see him as solid. He has no pace and last night on some of the kick returns looks to be running in treacle. If Watkins had been on the wing (or someone with pace the makinson try might not have been scored. For me every time he loses the collision being held up dragged back and always results in a slow PB. And I have yet to see him make a break or tackle bust all season. Wasn't his fault by any stretch of the imagination that we lost, and it's not scapegoating to say he is a poor player who is extremely lucky to even be at a club like Leeds

Which would happen more often if the rotationists had their way!

Alternatively you could play a hooker.

Once Mags had allowed the off load even Watkins couldn't have caught him, so to suggest Vickery was at fault is off the mark. He brought back kick returns as well or better than Hall on the night IMO. But our problems were not on the wing but at half back and in some poor discipline.

Burrow scored a good hookers try and made a good hookers pass for another.

So why be critical of Vickery last night when Hall was no better and there others much worse?

I thought you were talking about defensive holes in the middle of the park? Saying we could play a hooker seemed relevant to that.

I wouldn't have been critical of him had you not piped up saying he was our "best winger" last night. Hall, though he had no running opportunities, wasn't "no better": he got quick play-the-balls and offloads that Vickery couldn't even imagine. As I said, it was probably Vickery's best performance in a Leeds shirt and he wasn't responsible for the defeat. However he is in no way a Super League standard player, let alone a Leeds one.

I did not talk of defensive holes in the middle of the park.

I didn't say it was his fault, he has no pace, Watkins nearly made the tackle from a worse position, if he had been on the wing he may have saved a try he may not but IMO he would have got their.

No one in their right mind would blame him for last nights defeat but equally it's plain to see he is not good enough to play at this level.

Fetlar: There was a giant Jamie Peacock size hole in our defence. Once that was discovered we were knackered. Up to that point I thought everyone did their job pretty well - some of our tackling was ferocious.

Juan Cornetto: Which would happen more often if the rotationists had their way!

_________________________________

What was this conversation about then?