Why the insistence in defending his inclusion ? What you say is true but Kirke is not just a fringe player...somehow he makes the 17 every damn week. Ali, despite his relative decline, would be the better bench choice. Pitts too.

No doubt he will also frustratingly make the 17 next season regardless of any new signing (s) and the return of the better Ambler plus Amor.

I asked the same question on another thread because I can't think of any occasion where Leeds have beaten Wigan in a Final.

The only Finals I can remember are...

1982/83 - John Player Special Trophy Final at Elland Rd - Wigan 15 Leeds 4
1993/94 - Challenge Cup Final at Wembley - Wigan 26 Leeds 16
1994/95 - Challenge Cup Final at Wembley - Wigan 30 Leeds 10
1994/95 - Premiership Trophy Final at Old Trafford - Wigan 69 Leeds 12
1998 - Super League Grand Final at Old Trafford - Wigan 10 Leeds 4

We can also exclude Championship Finals and Floodlit Trophy as well.

Shame he didn't do the same on another much smaller bloke in the CC Final last year when a simple try was begging.

I've nothing to add to that at the moment. I don't have a definitive list and I don't like to go out on a limb but I'm thinking Leeds have never beaten Wigan in a 1st grade Final. At Academy level perhaps but not at 1st grade.

Anderson?

The desire to run over his ex team-mate was greater than his desire to score the all important first try unfortunately.

Had it not been Mathers, I think he scores and Leeds win the cup.

A few years ago everyone kept going on about how Saints had never lost a grand final... The rest is history.

Gerry or Sylvia?

Indeed... personal ego at the expense of the team.

Huge call

Which leads me nicely to Saturday's comments by Messers Balding, Millward, Noble and Woods.

Balding: Leon Pryce has won three Challenge Cup winners medal with Leeds (=#FF0000no comment)

Millward: No team has done the Grand Final and Challenge Cup double during the SL Era (=#FF0000of course they haven't, listen up Bradford and St Helens fans you might learn something)

Noble: Says nothing despite being one of the two coaches to do just that in 2003 (=#FF0000Daniel Anderson being the other in 2006)

Woods: How many Lance Todd Trophies has Sean Long won? Is it four or five? (=#FF0000it's 3 - 2001, 2004, 2006)

They are in serious need of a Bill Frindall or a Statto in order to provide legitimacy.

You should apply for the job if it's ever offered

You weren't seriously expecting any kind of sensible input from the BBC presentation team were you?

Millward would have been too busy figuring out how many G&Ts he'd have to get into Clare Balding before she would sleep with him. Noble's got all the charisma of a baked bean and Woods is about hospital radio level.

Throw in John Kear's constant sycophantic butt-kissing of the match officials - no matter what the quality of their decision making - and you've got a presentation team so bad it makes me wish Sky would take exclusive rights to all rugby league just so I never have to encounter them again.

He'd be barking up the wrong tree there!

AndI think the answer would be around 8.

It's Basil we're talking about here.

No tree is a wrong tree, just some are harder to climb than others.

The only image I'm working with at the minute is Clare Balding in full, skimpy, cheer-leaders attire.

My blood now runs chilled.

On Sunday both Ray French and John Kear somehow contrived to mention the sell out crowd in attendance as the camera was panning across banks of empty seats.

Perhaps it's just the individuals who have sold out.

I was keeping an eye out for Kirke during the game. Seemed quite effective when he put himself forward for the ball, but I still think he needs to take the ball more.

They've certainly not beaten them in a Challenge Cup Final that's for sure!

I'm almost certain that Leeds haven't beaten Wigan in any First Grade Final throughout their history.

I'm going to look into it - but it's looking that way.

If tvoc has nothing in the last 40 years, what Finals could there actually be before that where they could have met?

Confidence is growing that we are arriving at a concensus of apparent Leeds fail.

Championship/Grand Final, tick
Challenge Cup, tick
Premiership, tick
John Player/Regal Trophy, tick
Floodlit Trophy, tick
Lancashire/Yorkshire Cups, tick

IIRC the stats also show Wigan have never beaten Sheffield Eagles in a major RL cup final

Championship Finals, but considering Leeds 3 championship finals involved beating Warrington in 1960/61, Castleford in 1968/69 and St Helens in 1971/72, we can rule that out.

Leeds won the Players No.6 Trophy in 1974/75 beating Salford.
Leeds won the John Player Special Trophy in 1983/84 beating Widnes.
Leeds won the Premiership Trophy in 1974/75 and 1978/79 beating St Helens and Bradford Northern respectively.
Leeds won the BBC2 Floodlit Trophy in 1970/71 beating St Helens.

That's it... I think.

Hudds managed to get a monkey off their back this year.

As did Warrington