Not far off, but not quite.

I don't think for one minute that anyone in the Rhinos management think that Buderus does not have the fitness to play week in week out at Leeds. I think you are correct though, that however would not keep him at the top of his game. He was however fulfilling that role before coming to Leeds regardless of your view.

My belief is that neither of the two hookers can play a full 80 minutes, but the you would get a higher impact per minute from Buderus than you would from Diskin. My belief is that there will be some games where Diskin's game would be better utilized than Buderus, but for the most part Buderus's game would be far better to use. My belief is that whilst there is times where both players are needed in the 17 to play the way the coach wants, that Buderus should play the greater time out of that 80 where the game dictates. And it is further my believe that there is no need that it has to be a given when both fit that they both have to be in the 17. And yes, I do believe that there is a man management issue here dictating selection rather than the one that you propose.

From my own p.o.v mate i used that example to show titchy that Diskin is still good enough and not "finished" as he and some others suggest.
It wasn't to prove or imply that Buderus wasn't good enough just to highlight we could be successfull without him.

Interesting - and probably pointless to pursue.

However, my point about Buderus in his last 2 years at Newcastle was that he was [itrying [/ito fulfil the role you mention but that his body was letting him down - that's why he missed so many games with injuries.

You might well be right, but as it was Buderus that was injured it was Diskin that had the opportunity. So we [iknow [/iDiskin can manage 8 games like that but we don't know Buderus could.

To extend it further Diskin could point at 2008 as evidence that he could operate consistently as the sole specialist but Buderus would need to go back to 2006 to do so.

But he wasn't missing games like you are portraying, and he was playing the game time I mentioned he should be give for Leeds. Infact, tvoc put a post in every week in his last season at Newcastle showing just how many minutes he was playing each week.

I also forgot to add something.

And yes, I would not give either player more than a 1 year contract, as I think both would not be adequate for Leeds come the start of 2012.

That's my opinion.

Its not his minutes I'm interested in its the number of games he missed.

He missed 22 of the 50 he could have played in. Even assuming he was fit and missed 6 for SOO he'd still have missed a third of all Newcastle's games.

I think bringing injuries into it add nothing. Last year DB broke his leg, not because he's not up to it, but that he bravely went for possession.

I don't know about his other injuries, but to a certain extent I would ignore them. 12weeks continous absence is acceptable for an RL player, its part of the game. 12 missed games in 4 or more blocks would raise eyebrows and warrant looking at in terms of whether he was still up to it

Diskin missed the whole of 2005. I dont' see what relevance that has.

Buderus was not missing games because he was not fit. He missed due to injury, just like Diskin did in 2005.

Likewise Buderus when he has been asked to do so in his time at Leeds.

Granted not over as prolonged a period, as Diskin was more fortunate than Buderus on the injury front last season.

That's missing the point.

He didn't miss big chunks from a freak break or injury as he did at the start and end of last season, he missed games regularly - a week here, month there.

Rounds missed in 2007: 1, 2, 3, 10, 11, 13, 16, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23.
Rounds missed in 2008: 7, 8, 10, 11, 13, 16, 17, 18, 19, 25.


That reads to me like a number of differnt injuries causing missed games commensurate with a player whose body can no longer cope with the rigours of weak in week out games at 70+ minutes.

That would not be unsurprising for a forward who'd made nearly 300 test, SOO and NRL appearances in the previous 11 years.

In turn, that might explain why he doesn't get the sole hooking spot at Leeds that his apparent superiority might otherwise warrant - that Leeds are able to prolong his career, effectiveness and availability by spelling him with another hooker.

See the response above.

as i have often posted, Buderus broke his leg in a game where he was playing injured, I'm sure that didnt help his cause

Simple bullets to summarise for you:

1. There's nothing that much wrong with Diskin's form, so he should be in the 17 based on that alone - especially as has been pointed out we play a game based on two hookers. That said, if we dropped players as experienced as Diskin every time their form didn't match up to their best for a few games then JJB, Kylie, Senior and Hall would have spent part of the early season watching from the terraces. Even our captain has looked out of sorts at times.
2. I didn't say "everyone knows" - you did - paranoia? I said the Leeds coaching staff know, which they demonstrate by selecting Matt every week he is fit. They could be wrong of course, and you could be right, what do you think?
3. As for "putting up or shutting up" (don't talk to me about belonging in a schoolyard) - done. I put my views out in no uncertain terms in my first post on the subject. If that wasn't clear enough for you then I can't help further.

A fair post. Given my own criteria I would say he missed a lot of games in those seasons in reasonably small chunks

Not sure that unless he had a hairline which he was playing with that it would have had much to do with a broken leg

There was nothing certain about your first post.... sentimental and maudlin' would be a better description, but as we are never going to agree, far less debate points whilst you avoid them, I think we should leave it there.

Quote ="G1"Thick know nowt fekkwitts like the Magic Wand like shiny things. Big shiny expensive Aussie imports.

Lots of our fekkwitt fans are the same.

Matters nowt that they've won fekk all with us. They still like them more than winners.'"

You obviously consider yourself some sort of oracle..and it seems you have your slavish followers. However, I have followed your contributions for some time and the very dignified TVOC in particular (who simply presents the facts and allows us to draw our own conclusions) exposes you for what you are: verbose but pretty ignorant. You often resort to insults ( fav word [it[/i about sums up your talent in the use of the rich English vocabulary at your disposal).

Here again you present no argument just blind abusive ignorance. Maybe 'Magic Wand' might be confrontational (perhaps because of a long history of the utmost [itedry[/i - to coin a phrase - from yourself and your followers)..but he presents a good case here at least. Are you really suggesting that because Buderus hasn't won any of those tediously acclaimed 4 GF medals with Leeds he isn't a "winner" ?? Remove those seriously opaque blinkers and try to present a reasoned riposte in your defence of Diskin. Hint: past glories are NOT a defence for present form.

There is obviously some "history" on here....???!! ...but as a relative newcomer without preconceived prejudice I can see there are two distinct camps. Those who can present an intelligent post and those who resort to rhetoric and insult. Sadly you seem to be in the latter camp.

This particular subject seems to be very divisive.... but only because too many on here are blinded by the audacity of a superior usurper daring to perform better than one of their precious "heroes"

Quote ="otleyrhino"eusa_clap.gif'"

A blinkered slavish mob mentality defender of a perceived "mate"/"one of the lads" - Diskin.

Quote ="DHM"You mean why form and consistancy of form over more than a few games should be considered as opposed to (very debatable) player assessments made by you and a couple of others? I don't have to, there's no argument to make. I know it, several others on here know it and the Leeds coaching staff and management know it.

Look, I know you and a few others, have had to endure being made to look slightly foolish at times last year, when Buderus turned out to be less than a fabulous signing. Patchy form, continuous injuries and even worse, Matt Diskin once again showing with him as the only hooker in the side we have better results (TVOC has put those numbers up before)n and we end up topping the table and winning a GF - again (that's last year in case you forgot, not 5 years ago or 6 years ago - 7 months ago). So I guess it was understandable that as soon as Buderus showed anything even half resembling the form Diskin regularly shows that you would take your chance to craw. But my initial assessmant stands. You are a bunch of spoiled kids.

For the record, I thought signing Buderus was not a bad idea initially. He was a quality player who became available to cover a position where we had nothing to back up Diskin should he suffer a long term injury. As it turned out he's been an average signing. Barely playing last year and hardly impressing when he did. We seem to be getting better value from him this year - which is good for the team - but I am baffled by why this immediately triggers a wave of player bashing the likes of which I haven't seen since we had Richie Mathers at the club. I can only assume that the desire to get "even" with certain other posters who have in the past made you look like a numpty.

And as for the egg, there isn't any. And I have a beard at the moment, not just a tash.'"

Juvenile insults with again the suggestion that anybody who opposes your view is a "spoiled kid" or a "numpty" ...why ?? I am, for one, certainly far from being a kid and neither am I "player bashing" ....and I don't see others doing it. The argument is who deserves their place in the first 17 on merit and present form !!!!

Quote ="Puig-Aubert"Poor William.

One day someone will care if you live or die. One day.

Hold onto that hope. Be brave. Don't take the coward's way out.

I'm rooting for you.'"

Gosh...pathetic !

Quote ="Puig-Aubert"Bullseye.


(Though I do also think that some posters, when comparing the Buderus apple with the Diskin orange, will bemoan the latter's lake of pips and green skin rather than recognising them as 2 different comodities).'"

Do you revere the coaching staff ?

Why "bullseye" ?

No body of power, whether it's government or the coaching staff of a mere RL club, is infallible. These people too can be influenced by alliances and matters contrary to rational logic

Quote ="Puig-Aubert"


(Though I do also think that some posters, when comparing the Buderus apple with the Diskin orange, will bemoan the latter's lake of pips and green skin rather than recognising them as 2 different comodities).'"

Nice try.....but the "orange" is steadily turning a little rotten.....and for sure you don't put oranges in an apple pie - where all the ingredients complement each other to make a greater sum.

Feeling better now?

Go make your other half a nice cup of tea. Life's too short.

Don't get 2 different arguments mixed up.
The likes of Magic Wand are well known for his seasonal " player to hate and dismiss" antics and his assertation that Diskin is finished and has been for 18+ months claerlly shows his usual "player bashing".
Now the main part of the debate about the 2 9's in the 17 has been in my view debated quite well by both sides of the coin without the need for pi$$ing contests.
I personally think Diskin is far from finished and have posted as such and outlined my opinion i also see that he's not on his best form at the moment but should that result in a mouth frothing witch hunt?
Some call it sentimental,blinkered etc and like i outlined in a previous post you don't be as successful as we have been whilst acting sentimentally.
A lot can see that having both in the 17 has it's merits whilst others would prefer just 1 of them.
I and others have also pointed out when questioned that both are/should be in the 1st choice 17 when everyone is fit and the coach seems to be of that opinion does that make him sentimental?
I'm happy to outline my opinion and back it up as many others have like yourself , the side show is just that a nothing pi$$ing contest that titchy craves from time to time when a player isn't in top form and just to back that up this is the same person who said last year more than once that Sinfield was "over-rated,not up to it and should never be picked for England".

Quote ="tvoc"Feeling better now?

Go make your other half a nice cup of tea. Life's too short.'"

Thank you....you're right. Hell what's wrong with me...it's not [ithat[/i important. Lol

Perhaps I'm being sequipedalian but there are some real punchinelloes on here.

I wish I did have your dignity and had managed to keep out of it.

I will end by saying all those that advocate and justify Diskin being back up to Buderus (who they begrudingly accept is the better player ) ...why not have McShane as the back up.....not only for 2011 (my choice)....but NOW ??

He is the most important to Leeds' future.

Let your "hero" go and develop this new one. You know it makes sense.