I understand what you're saying, Gareth, but I genuinely don't think there's much (if any) racism involved. I've certainly never heard any directed towards him from the Wigan fans at least and, as has been mentioned earlier, some of Wigan's greatest heroes are black or mixed race. Boston is pretty much Mr Wigan but you could equally add Hanley, Gill, Offiah and Robinson amongst others who Wigan fan's hold dear to their hearts. I think the 'disproportionate' view to his antics stem more from the fact that, rightly or wrongly, he's regarded as a bit cowardly. I've often heard it levelled at him that he starts things but then 'goes hiding' and often aims his aggression at smaller players but tends to back down if it's a genuine hard man he's up against. I couldn't say whether this reputation is justified or not but I do think it's the reason he cops the ire of opposition fans. At least that's how it seems to me.

I'm not sure whether G1's right or not. But I think you've slightly missed the argument here.

What we're talking about is the kind of unconscious and/or unspoken racism that affects people's reactions, perceptions and context when they view the world. It's different from the sort that makes racist remarks, but it's no less real.

Even with the more overt racism you're talking about, the phenomenon whereby a distinction is drawn between "our blacks and their blacks" has always been common. Have a look at the Shaka Hislop story in the history of Show Racism the Red Card for a famous example.

So to go to your argument that it's the perception that he's cowardly, the issue would not be that that's the perception, it would be why that perception exists. He's certainly biffed it out with the big lads enough times, and he is by no means the first, or only contemporary prop forward who likes to have a pop at a smaller back or half back. Are you telling me Kelvin Skerrett would never have landed one on a scrum half? In fact he used to be involved in a lot of rough stuff, and picked up some bans etc. Then, of course, his reputation was just as your common thug who was always brawling. I've had a real sense that he reached a point where he walked away from trouble more often because he had been convinced that he was more useful on the field than in the stands. I also have a theory that this has cost him some of his old edge and may not actually have been a good thing.

But, to keep to the point, accepting that the perception is, as you say, that he's maligned for being cowardly and niggly, why is it that he has that reputation when objectively his actions are not actually unusual for a prop forward. Most of the fans who level those accusations are unable to point to a specific incident, and when they can it's nothing that half the forwards in the game haven't also done.

There does seem to be prejudice at work. Could be a race issue. Could, I suspect, be connected to people's attitudes to the possibility of rehabilitation into society after being in prison. Could be both.

Either way, it's essentially the Daily Mail's fault.

Nice to have a sensible discussion about it rather than have it dismissed.

I suppose you could never rule it out E.D. but I equally think that sometimes it's and easy conclusion to jump to. It seems to be a catch all to some degree, if you know what I mean. Again, I don't know why he's perceived in this way more than other similar players, but purely on gut instinct I don't feel it's a racist issue. Obviously, I can't say for certain one way or the other but, if it were a racist viewpoint then surely it would equally apply to other black players and not just Bailey? I don't remember other players being regarded in the same way, even several decades ago when it was much more rife, although perhaps there are examples I simply don't know about. I think there is an 'ours and theirs' element to hating certain players but I think it equally applies to players where race couldn't possibly be an issue. Take McIlorum over the last couple days for example; loved by Wigan fans and seemingly hated by everyone else! It's difficult to stake a claim definitively but I just don't feel that's the reason...

I agree with you I do not believe it is a racist issue at all. Bailey was a promising young back row forward who IMO never trully has made the grade consistently as a prop. His aggressive style is mostly show as he has a poor go forward game around the ruck area and goes to ground far too easily. He has been a useful benchman and has been a reliable tackler. But over rated by many Leeds fans and perhaps underated by many opposition fans. I can understand why he is disliked which IMO is down to his playing style and not his colour.

But on balance, he is also a cult hero of Headingley. And a character opposition fans thrive off.

Yes i did mean 'cult'.

So, you're telling me opposition fans hate him because he's inconsistent and ineffective?

This is something which gets slung about alot without too much substance to be honest.

Yes he's levelled half backs and took frustration out on small fries like Chris Riley but he's also put enough big hits on numerous big lads.

Not a great example, but look at last week against Wigan. When it was flaring up and 'Mickey Mac' went high on Peacock. Who was straight in and rushed in on previous aggressor Bateman? Bailey. Yes there was handbags, a gashed head, a dodgy punch and a headlock. No prizes there, but at the same time certainly no hiding.

Just to broaden the discussion a little further, I've placed myself on the Western Terrace for every home game for the past... well since they dug-up the East Terrace and I can genuinely say I have never heard any racist chants or comments.

In fact the only time I have ever heard anything racist at a RL game was from a group of young Leeds 'Chavs' at Odsul about 6 or 7 years ago which was aimed at Bradford's Asian community more than any specific player.

Now I'm not saying the racism doesn't exist in RL as I'm sure, as with all aspects of life, there is, to some degree, elements of racism but gladly in RL it doesn't seem that prevalent.

I have on many an occasion heard taunts and chants aimed at Bailey - his past custodial record and how sexual activities may occur in prison showers, but honestly... nothing racist. I do however understand what Gareth is saying about there being some subconscious dislike of the chap because of his skin colour but I'd like to think that the vitriol aimed his way is for past behaviour and his perceived cowardliness and not because he's black.

I think you've summed it up pretty well for me in that post FB.

However I do see G's point.

An example - In Saturday's game Dudson shoved McGuire in the back well after the ball had gone. In the Magic game last year Bailey shoved Logan Tomkins in the back off the ball. Both were IMO cowardly, both resulted in penalties. My fervant hope is that Dudson cuts this out of his game, and sharpish, but people remember too many of these types of incidents with Bailey.

Had a think about this and thought about black forwards that had played for Leeds including Fleary, Farrell and Powell. None of them had the same level of vilification from opposing fans from what I remember. widening the net to all clubs and I could only come up with Sonny Nickle as a forward who generated similar levels of animosity amongst opposition fans.

I would therefore be generally of the opinion that the "hatred" is not really racist

I see where you're coming from with this but the alternate view would be that, instead of going after McIlorum, the perceived aggressor (but also not noted for being a soft touch), he made a beeline for a youngster in Bateman who, coincidently, had nothing to do with the original infringement. Now I'm not suggesting Bateman was an easier target as I simply don't know the ins and outs of it (although Wane is recently quoted as saying McIlorum is the toughest player he's ever coached) but you can see why Bailey gets the reputation he does. In contrast JP, for example, always goes directly into the heart of the problem, so to speak, when he dives in. I particularly remember the time against the Aussies when Sean Long was copping a bit of the rough stuff. I understand that I don't see as much of Bailey as yourselves but I would have to admit that my own impression is that he goes after the small or younger guys with a little too much gusto but I don't remember ever having seen him take on the genuine hard men. Again, I may be doing him an injustice but, as I say, that's my impression.

Didn't Bailey make a beeline for Bateman because of a "cannonball tackle" he received from him not long before? I may be wrong.

I think the problem comes from the fact that people remember too many of these incidents that didn't actually happen, whilst simultaneously forgetting about similar offences committed by other players. His card is quite clearly marked by some based on very little evidence indeed. Similarly I'm utterly perplexed by the regular demonisation of McGuire and Ablett as dirty or grubby players, I've seen a couple of occasions from both where they could do with winding their necks in, and for a while last year McGuire looked like he'd lost his marbles, but I wouldn't put either of them anywhere near the top of a league of dirty ba***ards.



Bateman seems to see himself as a bit of a hardman, so young or not he's put himself in the firing line. Regardless, it looked to me like Bailey was after McIllorum and Bateman grabbed him before he could get to him.

16163 views for this thread alone

Is this a record??

Come on, Bails was straight in middle of it and happened to grab hold of someone who also likes to start and join in with niggle.

All fair game for me.

Haha, don't get me wrong.. As a fan of the rougher side of the game I'm certainly not complaining!

I was just explaining how it might be that he is perceived the way he is.

I have! Hull KR at home a couple of years ago. It was an afternoon kick-off and loads of them rolled up pished in fancy dress and some couldn't get in. I heard one scrote shout racist abuse at Bails as he was lining up for their kick-off. The Old Bill heard it as well as one of them had a quiet word in his ear. Personally I'd have had his arm up his back and in the back of a van pronto. Lucky boy!

Possibly so mate. As I said, you lot see him more of him than the rest of us. However I don't remember him ever squaring up to a Morley or a Hock but can remember several occasions where he picked a seemingly easier target. Maybe that's a just a misconception but, if so, it's certainly one that prevails across RL as a whole.

Regarding Bateman, I have no issue with the suggestion that he maybe sees himself as a bit of a hard man but, again, as a straight choice between him and McIlorum I think most would see him as the easier target. I was just giving the alternate viewpoint. Tbh I'm not sure there is a 'definitive' answer as to why he is seen the way he is. Maybe it's a combination of a lot of smaller things rather than one overriding reason...

The other point you make is actually even more interesting in my view and comes back to the 'Ours and Theirs' point that El D made. Taking McGuire as the example I think it's his gamesmanship and 'sneaky digs' that his own fans are happy to overlook but that turns opposition fans against him. Not unlike how Sam Tomkins was often regarded on here. Take the Wigan game as an example. In that game alone he kicked George Williams in the chest and, just before the Ryan Hall try, elbowed Bowen in the throat (quite a bad shot in my opinion that deserved a penalty, but that's another debate altogether! lol). Now, individually they may not amount to an awful lot but, in the same way that Sam's niggles used to infuriate opposition fans, not the sort of thing that goes unnoticed and tends to turn people against them. He's not alone here though by any means. I've already mentioned Sam Tomkins but you could equally put any number of players in the same category. Nigglers who never really did much that could be described as really bad, but who were universally disliked by opposition fans.

he went nose to nose with morley then sat him on his arris with a belting tackle a few years back.
i don't rate him. for me he's wasted his career. i saw him as a teenager and he was awesome. for me he should have been another peacock but coward? no chance. nobody who plays at any level is a coward

You never saw the 300 page Ryan Bailey thread obviously.

We know he is a cult hero for you BB but of Headingley is stretching things too far even for you. Opposition fans see him for what he is.

No I am not actually telling you anything - just expressing an opinion. IMO opposition fans see him for what he is - a cheap shot merchant with average talent.

So you think he isn't supported in the terraces?

yes, it must just be me who sings the 'he does what he want song'.

I'm glad our longest serving prop gets the backing of the terraces, so he should.

If it's cult, as in 'a system of devotion directed towards a particular figure', definitely not. If it is a 'relatively small group of people' or a 'misplaced or excessive admiration for a particular thing', then very possibly.
Overall Bailey has been a major disappointment. that disappointment has exacerbated as he has got older & seemingly started to believe the hype. He's not a bad player, just not a patch on what I thought he was going to be.