I've been doing a bit of research and it looks like Ken Thornett (Paramatta 1962-1968 + 1971) played with both Derek Hallas (1963-65) and Fred Pickup (1966-6icon_cool.gif for Paramatta but not at the same time. Fred Pickup played for Manly (1964-65) and where he scored 16 tries

Talking of Kenny Thornett brings back some memories. For me still the best fullback I have seen. He was known to fans as "bucket" because he never seemed to drop the high ball. But he was known to Ozzie players as "the Mayor" because when on tour over here with the Green and Golds (after his time with Leeds) he was mobbed by admiring fans where ever he went.

I remember when Ken Thornett first arrived,at that time as kids we used to go watch them train,we used to walk with him back to the dressing room's,Arthur Clues at that time used to help out with the coaching,we had never heard Aussie accents before.We thought it was great.
Yes thanks for that about Fred Pickup I remember him going. I thought he spent all his spell at Parramatta.If he had stayed he would have figured in the Roy Francis era and probably got GB honour's but he did come back towards the end of his career and got a couple of medals

Ken Thornett was a terrific attacking FB with a lethal handoff. He used to figure a lot in the famous Lewis Jones "hanging pass" move with the object of putting a man into space.

From the base of a scrum Evans (SH) would pass to Jones (SO) who made to pass to his centres. But in the final execution of the pass would flip the ball up with wrists and soft hands to make the ball "hang" in the air as if by magic. This gave options for either Evans to run around Jones and collect the ball or for Thornett to take it at great speed and slice through with an angled run in the other direction.

This move produced many tries or yardage (as it was in those days). As opposition grew accustomed to the move Jones would vary it by following through with the pass to the centre with Evans and Thornett on dummy runs at different angles.

Talking of Derek Hallas I can still remember the try he scored in the 5-5 1st round cup game with Wigan ,in 1961 Evans passed to Jones from the scrum Jones kicked from about centre field halfway for Hallas and Rosenberg to chase
the ball just bounced nice for Hallas who ran about 15 yards to score 5-10yards in from the south stand old score board end.
Wigan equalised when geoff bootle stepped into touch on his way to score.
We got thrashed in the replay 32-7 ,but we got the holy grail the championship at the end of the season

I seem to remember getting soaked that day in a big 30k+ crowd. Big Jack Fairbank shoulder charged Billy Boston into the paddock and you could hear the contact all around the ground. Should have won on the day. I went to the replay at Central Park and we were outplayed by Ashton and their pack in front a huge crowd (mid week I think?)

yes youve got the game I was still at school so missed my first of many trips to Central park for the replay.I remember we were having games at school and the score came through.
Big Jack got sent off with Eric Ashton,but I still maintain,If Geoff Bootle had stepped into touch on his way to scoring ,but maybe it was a blessing in disguise it left us to concentrate on winning the holy grail

The Headingley game was (naturally enough) on the Saturday, the replay at Central Park the following Wednesday.



Before my time but presumably the Headingley game represented Leeds' best chance particularly after Sayer (Wigan's hooker) had received his marching orders for tripping in the second half. The equalising penalty for Wigan off the sideline must have been a sickener.

What all this has to do with aeroplanes is beyond me though.

Actually aeroplanes were a tangent. It was all to do with right & left wingers!

What are your thoughts now that the MRA4 has actually been scrapped?

Typhoon/Eurofighter pilots still not happy to be only getting 6 hours flying per month because of technical faults.

MY thoughts are much the same as before the deed was done in that the aerial surveillance/defence of this island nation is based on a wing (or not in this case) and a prayer.

If the decision had been made 10 years ago we could have had a replacement in place now. I was not surprised to learn of the 100+ faults in the latest version but it is amazing to learn that they had not corrected the safety fault that caused the tragic crash of a few years ago.

If ever there was a case of throwing good money after bad it is this one. This highlights the need for a complete overhaul of our defence procurement chiefs who like many of their purchases are not fit for purpose.

Well they should be chuffed to bits now.

Prime Minister 'Call me Dave' has committed Typhoon into theatre and done so (quite incredibly) despite your heartfelt concerns/reservations of the type.

Why would he do such a thing when it's (according to some) unsuitable and unservicable. Unless of course such comments were unfounded.

I thought you would be pleased that finally the Typhoon yesterday made it's long awaited debut in a combat situation - now that its safe to do so!

It's inability to be used for ground attack and the lack of need for this type of aircraft in the modern world other than as a trafic police role at a huge cost still highlights the waste of money. They still have problems with cracks in the fusalage so can't use its full spec. But will be ok for airshows for some time to come!

Quote ="Juan Cornetto"I thought you would be pleased that finally the Typhoon yesterday made it's long awaited debut in a combat situation - now that its safe to do so!'" Combat? As previously discussed: Typhoons replaced Tornado F3's of the '1435 flight' in September 2009 at RAF Mount Pleasant on the Falkland Islands. 3 Squadron Typhoons at RAF Coningsby have been on force in the QRA interceptor role for the Southern sector UK air defence since mid 2007. Depends how you define 'combat' while recognising for there to be 'combat' in the terms of reference as apply to the Middle-East, the politicians first have to fail. Quote ="Juan Cornetto"It's inability to be used for ground attack and the lack of need for this type of aircraft in the modern world other than as a trafic police role at a huge cost still highlights the waste of money. They still have problems with cracks in the fusalage so can't use its full spec. But will be ok for airshows for some time to come!'" www.raf.mod.uk/rafconingsby/news ... 62D70F1FBA Tooled up Typhoon at Farnbourough 2010: www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Z5610IS5cU And from crowd centre: www.youtube.com/watch?v=uacWFtvUp9M Patience. The Typhoon will be with us for decades. Unfortunately as aircraft numbers (and RAF personel) are reduced by the politicians, without also reducing what they demand of them, the type in question (and it would apply to any type) will be stretched ever more thinly. The earlier than planned for retirement of Jaguar, Tornado F3 and now Harrier plus reduced numbers of airframes all inevitably having a detrimental effect on the introduction of Typhoon in the multi and swing-roles. Like operating with a smaller playing squad in Super League.

Quote ="Juan Cornetto"I thought you would be pleased that finally the Typhoon yesterday made it's long awaited debut in a combat situation - now that its safe to do so!'" Combat? As previously discussed: Typhoons replaced Tornado F3's of the '1435 flight' in September 2009 at RAF Mount Pleasant on the Falkland Islands. 3 Squadron Typhoons at RAF Coningsby have been on force in the QRA interceptor role for the Southern sector UK air defence since mid 2007. Depends how you define 'combat' while recognising for there to be 'combat' in the terms of reference as apply to the Middle-East, the politicians first have to fail. Quote ="Juan Cornetto"It's inability to be used for ground attack and the lack of need for this type of aircraft in the modern world other than as a trafic police role at a huge cost still highlights the waste of money. They still have problems with cracks in the fusalage so can't use its full spec. But will be ok for airshows for some time to come!'" www.raf.mod.uk/rafconingsby/news ... 62D70F1FBA Tooled up Typhoon at Farnbourough 2010: www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Z5610IS5cU And from crowd centre: www.youtube.com/watch?v=uacWFtvUp9M Patience. The Typhoon will be with us for decades. Unfortunately as aircraft numbers (and RAF personel) are reduced by the politicians, without also reducing what they demand of them, the type in question (and it would apply to any type) will be stretched ever more thinly. The earlier than planned for retirement of Jaguar, Tornado F3 and now Harrier plus reduced numbers of airframes all inevitably having a detrimental effect on the introduction of Typhoon in the multi and swing-roles. Like operating with a smaller playing squad in Super League.

Quote ="tvoc"Combat? As previously discussed: Typhoons replaced Tornado F3's of the '1435 flight' in September 2009 at RAF Mount Pleasant on the Falkland Islands. 3 Squadron Typhoons at RAF Coningsby have been on force in the QRA interceptor role for the Southern sector UK air defence since mid 2007. Depends how you define 'combat' while recognising for there to be 'combat' in the terms of reference as apply to the Middle-East, the politicians first have to fail. www.raf.mod.uk/rafconingsby/news ... 62D70F1FBA Tooled up Typhoon at Farnbourough 2010: www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Z5610IS5cU And from crowd centre: www.youtube.com/watch?v=uacWFtvUp9M Patience. The Typhoon will be with us for decades. Unfortunately as aircraft numbers (and RAF personel) are reduced by the politicians, without also reducing what they demand of them, the type in question (and it would apply to any type) will be stretched ever more thinly. The earlier than planned for retirement of Jaguar, Tornado F3 and now Harrier plus reduced numbers of airframes all inevitably having a detrimental effect on the introduction of Typhoon in the multi and swing-roles. Like operating with a smaller playing squad in Super League.'" And a squad of just Robbie Burrows at that.... Small, fast and agile all but not always fit for purpose. We need more JJB's ( A - 10's ) and Seniors ( F/ A - 18 's ) to flesh out the squad. Some cheaper but useful new McShanes ( Gripens ) might be useful too. Would certainly make for better airshows anyway.

Quote ="tvoc"Combat? As previously discussed: Typhoons replaced Tornado F3's of the '1435 flight' in September 2009 at RAF Mount Pleasant on the Falkland Islands. 3 Squadron Typhoons at RAF Coningsby have been on force in the QRA interceptor role for the Southern sector UK air defence since mid 2007. Depends how you define 'combat' while recognising for there to be 'combat' in the terms of reference as apply to the Middle-East, the politicians first have to fail. www.raf.mod.uk/rafconingsby/news ... 62D70F1FBA Tooled up Typhoon at Farnbourough 2010: www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Z5610IS5cU And from crowd centre: www.youtube.com/watch?v=uacWFtvUp9M Patience. The Typhoon will be with us for decades. Unfortunately as aircraft numbers (and RAF personel) are reduced by the politicians, without also reducing what they demand of them, the type in question (and it would apply to any type) will be stretched ever more thinly. The earlier than planned for retirement of Jaguar, Tornado F3 and now Harrier plus reduced numbers of airframes all inevitably having a detrimental effect on the introduction of Typhoon in the multi and swing-roles. Like operating with a smaller playing squad in Super League.'" And a squad of just Robbie Burrows at that.... Small, fast and agile all but not always fit for purpose. We need more JJB's ( A - 10's ) and Seniors ( F/ A - 18 's ) to flesh out the squad. Some cheaper but useful new McShanes ( Gripens ) might be useful too. Would certainly make for better airshows anyway.

.... Like you perhaps TVOC, however, I am certainly nostalic for more Stevie Pitchfords ( Vulcans ) ... The days when players ( aircraft ) had much more clearly defined, specific, no compromised roles

Fairchild Republic A-10 Thunderbolt II - Great name, great plane. An airframe basically built around a gatling gun. Seen them on the ranges at RAF Wainfleet a couple of times on live firing exercises. The ranges are sadly no more.

_________

No perhaps about it. Three planes designed and in service to do one job now sadly reduced to one plane to do three jobs. Progress - you can keep it.

I prefer its nick-name ( no offence JJB ) .... So apt. Still the best at its job. A modern day Stormovik. Not a more prettier site to the Libya " rebels " I am sure.

None based close enough though I guess ??

Combat implies there is some enemy around. The other two deployments are safe ops. So like I said this is the Typhoons first taste of the real thing although I don't think they have fired at anything yet.

You are quite right that the Typhoons have eventually been equipped with some air to ground potential, however this is an add-on and is in no way their primary role. Hence they are being used in an overflying role. In fact Singapore, Soth Korea, Australia, Czech and the Netherlands all rejected the Typhoon in favour of other aircraft mainly because it isn't good enough for ground attack.

The ageing Tornado will remain the mainstay of our ground attack for some time yet. It's 2 man crew, large and varied payload make it the first choice for ground attack and high tech re-con by some margin.



Of course the Typhoon will be with us for decades, we have spent all the money on it and now have no other options. But the need for air to air combat has dimished so much that they need to work on its secondary role in ground attack

I regret some of the reduction in aircraft numbers and wish Mr Brown had not left us so much in debt. I would have preferred to have kept the Ark Royal and Harriers. However we had too many pilots who were not getting in the necessary flying hours before the reduction in aircraft.

One of my concerns for some time has been the lack of spare parts that has kept so many of our aircraft grounded over a period of several years.

I think the buying process should be taken away from the MOD who have shown themselves not fit for purpose for procurement. They have caused such a huge waste and delays on delivery that are a major disgrace and our services are now suffering as a consequence.

Having a capable deterrent helps to ensure these tasks can remain 'safe ops' now and hopefully into the future. If they never have to fire a missile in anger they've done their job (of protecting actual sovereign territory) more effectively then if they have had just cause to engage the enemy entering our protected air space. That they are capable and would prevail in such an encounter is the acid test and one I have every confidence they would pass if called on to do so.



Unlike you I really can't get myself all worked up over the fact a plane designed under the banner 'EuroFighter' is at present being used primarily in the role of errrrrr ....... for want of a better word ....... fighter. Establishing air superiority and flying combat air patrols is what I'd expect of a fighter and unsurprisingly (to me at least) that's what it's been tasked to do.

If it had been conceived as the 'EuroBomber' I'd be disappointed how things had progressed to this point.



I can't say I can get myself worked up about that fact either. The Tornado IDS was the 'EuroBomber' concept in action. Has the Tornado GR4 to this point remained in service beyond it's anticipated retirement date? Here's a crazy thought, perhaps the RAF should simply continue to deploy them in the role they excel at while they still have it available.

As for the future is it too late to launch a consultation to see what should eventually replace Tornado? My guess the answer could be Tornado, a multi billion pound refit could then be procured and when the airframes are 90% complete the scrapman gets to come in, erect a few screens and smash them to pieces with his JCB.

Nah that could never happen.

I expect when the Tornado does come to retire a future engagement would shape up something like this:

1. Stormshadows take out all the key elements, launched from F-35s 300 miles away, and flying at 40,000ft. With Typhoons performing CAP.

2. Stealth UAVs and F-35, go in undetected, and take a look, then take out anything 'missed'.

3. Typhoons do the SEAD job using ALARMs, using data provided by the F-35s and UAVs, taking out any highly mobile threats, and deal with any fighters remaining.

4. Marines go in 'spiking' targets for PGMs so F-35 and UAVs can take them out.

5. CAS flown by F-35s and Apaches for remainder of war, controlled by ASTOR.



This debt you speak of doesn't appear to be effecting the UK's ability to make huge sandcastles in another Middle-Eastern desert for what could turn out to be yet another open ended commitment.

I too wish the UK government would concentrate on ensuring this island nation cannot become blockaded by nuclear armed submarines but I'm hoping with a bit of luck and fingers crossed we'll be alright.

I agree with you comment.

However the point we were discussing, if you recall, was that you challenged my comment that the Typhoon was making its much delayed (how many years?) debut in a combat situation (ie war situation) So perhaps it would be easier to acknowlege this rather than pretend that flying over the Fauklands and around our coasts is a wartime situation.




Our earlier discussions were regarding the huge cost and technical problems of the Typhoon. My opinion was that it should have been cancelled years ago with the savings used to buy the sort of aircraft more suited to todays conflicts.

The need for a highly manoverable fighter has now diminished. Had the Typhoon been delivered on time and had it not had so many technical problems then we may have had some better value from it. Now the hope is that it can become more effective in ground attack.

May I point out that it is not the Typhoon that has "established air superiority" This position has been achieved by the ground attack from maritime and coalition aircraft including precision work from the ageing Tornado. Now that the no fly zone has been established and Gadaffi has no ability to use his military aircraft the Typhoon takes the stage to police the skies with little chance of "combat" unless it is used in some way for ground attack.




Are you refering to that other huge waste of money the Nimrod that still had over 100 faults (including the same one that cost so many lives when it came down several years ago) even after the latest upgrade. MOD lack of contract management at its very worst. Shame it had such a sad end as it was a very graceful old lady but unfit for purpose. Its origin was the Comet which I flew on in the early 70's (with extra insurance of course)



I know you don't like to speak of the Brown/Balls debt for obvious reasons. Or are you a deficit/debt denier? The additional cost of our Libyan action is being covered by the Treasury reserve, however I would like to see us recover these costs from the Arab League countries or even from the frozen libyan assets.

From the tone of your comments are you saying you would have voted to ignore the pleas from the Libyan protesters as they were about to be massacred?

And would you have voted to ignore our responsibility to the UN resolution?

Germany abstained. D'ya think it'll suffer any ramifications ?

If they won't contribute personnel why not [itheir[/i Eurofighters ?

"Plane Finder" app for the Iphone, lets you track commercial airline flight paths around the world

This roundabout never ends. Which war has the Typhoon missed? The Typhoon has replaced the F3's, with multi-role capability coming on stream and swing-role to follow. The ability to switch from air to air to air to ground while in flight is exactly the type of capability/versatility that will be useful.



Any more stable doors you would like to close. I'm only really interested in the here and now and future requirements and meeting those with wherever possible British design and manufacture albeit as part of a European consortium these days as R&D costs are prohibitive for all but the biggest and wealthiest nations and we're not one of those. (Is it about now you suggest the UK purchase some F22 Raptors and pretend the good old US of A wouldn't dream of selling arms to countries/states in the middle east.)



As I expect it will and then fit nicely in the plan I outlined in the previous post. The sooner the better as far as the treasury is concerned. Although I'd at least like to see Tornado retained in the recce role.



Air superiority is ensuring the skies are kept clear of adversarial planes, whereby if they take to the skies they get taken down by 'allied' fighters. Suppression of surface to air defences obviously plays a large part of that mission also.




The Times Article? I haven't seen it and you haven't as yet expanded much beyond the headline (it's behind a pay-wall online and that's where it can stay for me) however I have found this online with explanation/rebuttals in brackets from someone involved intimately with the project. His comments I've =#FF0000highlighted in red.

=#FF0000Below is the Sunday Times article with considered factual responses in brackets. You will be left in absolutely no doubt whatsoever that the MoD, through the 'restricted' document have spread malicious, inaccurate information about the status of the aircraft in an attempt to deflect everyone from the truth.

Nimrods had 'critical fault'
Simon McGee
THE nine Nimrod aircraft cancelled amid a storm of condemnation and at a cost of £4 billion were designed with the same critical safety fault blamed for the downing of an RAF Nimrod in 2006 with the loss of 14 lives. Liam Fox, the defence secretary, has been accused of leaving a "massive gap" in the nation's security by scrapping the fleet of maritime patrol planes. But classified documents seen by The Sunday Times reveal Ministry of Defence (MoD) safety tests conducted last year on the first Nimrod MRA4, built by BAE Systems, found "several hundred design non-compliances". (=#FF0000Non-compliances are a fact of life. They are either agreed, in which case they become part of the updated Design Baseline, or are fixed.)

Among them were problems opening and closing the bomb bay doors, (=#FF0000the Bomb-bay Doors opened fine thank you)failures of the landing gear to deploy (=#FF0000the landing gear never failed to deploy/retract once in the 5 years I flew on the program – there were 2 instances of Nose wheel door indication failure due to incorrectly positioned nosewheel door microswitches – this was partly a result of the original part manufacturer going out of business and the replacement sensors being of a slightly different design, a fact that wasn't picked up until the first occurrence at which point it was fixed)overheating engines (=#FF0000no recollection of any engine overheat during flight trials – there may have been one induced deliberately as part of flight test but I don't think so – utter crap) gaps in the engine walls (=#FF0000true – gaps were found between the engine bay fire wall and surrounding structure. Temporary fix employed to enable flight test to continue whilst reason identified and permanent fix embodied through production) limitations operating in icy conditions (=#FF0000because QinetiQ hadn't finished its final recommendations, that's why it was called an Incremental Release to Service, as QinetiQ provided wider clearances, the RTS expanded) concerns that "a single bird-strike" could disable the aircraft's controls (=#FF0000there was a theoretical possibility that a suicidal albatross could somehow fly directly into the Bomb bay – whilst the doors were open of course – miss the life rafts and everything else in there – and impact a specific area about 6ins long x 4ins wide that may have ultimately had an adverse effect on the aileron system. A cover guard was being designed.)

However, the most serious problem discovered by Defence Equipment and Support (DE&S) inspectors at MoD Abbey Wood in Bristol involved a still unresolved design flaw. It concerns the proximity of a hot air pipe to an uninsulated fuel line, widely blamed for an explosion on board Nimrod XV230 on September 2, 2006, near Kandahar airport in Afghanistan. A three-page summary of the faults, labelled "restricted" and written on September 17, last year, stated: "The work being undertaken by the MoD to validate the BAE Systems aircraft's safety case during the week of September 13, 2010, identified a potentially serious design defect: a small section of a hot air pipe was discovered to be uninsulated in an area that also contains fuel pipes, which is outside the design regulations." (=#FF0000The fuel feed pipe from the No1 Tank exits the lower fuselage area and travels upwards and slightly forwards through the inter-space between the fuselage and the inboard engine fire wall, before disappearing off to join the fuel feed line. This occurs roughly mid-way along the wing chord at the wing root. In the same inter-space is the Engine intake Anti-icing take-off pipe that travels up and then forward approximately 8ft 6ins. This pipe was insulated, apart from the very last 4ins or so, where it went through a small bulkhead into the Intake Nacelle and the piccolo tube for the Anti-icing system. The Functional Failure Analysis looked at likely failure rates of the fuel pipe, the maximum likely temperature of the Engine Intake Anti-icing air off-take, the likely usage frequency and time of the Engine Anti-Icing System, the fact that the fuel had to travel both forwards, about 8 feet, against the natural airflow used to ventilate the inter-space and upwards, about 30ins, and came to the conclusion that this was approximately a 10-9 probability event, which was the probability level agreed as the target to achieve. The subsequent MoD/RAF Zonal Hazard Analysis used the SWIFT approach (So What If Technique), which does not really look at probabilities (that's generally a good thing!), it just starts off with "So What If?".=#FF0000 At this point it became obvious that a design solution would be needed, this was in the process of being worked and agreed. The temporary workround was to isolate the No1 Tank, this would have resulted in a temporary restriction to RAF training flights of around 3 hours duration plus div fuel if only No4 Tanks fuel was carried.)

=#FF0000One more point. Given the investigations into the leaking of documents, that this Government is so concerned about, for example, the dozens of MoD police who are involed in investigating who leaked Liam Fox's letter to the PM, why has there been no announcment of an investigation into the leaking of this 'restricted' document to the Times?

You pay your money and take your choice. Personally I side with the view expressed by someone heavily involved on the project rather than some half-baked, politically motivated propoganda, leaked to the Murdoch press but then I would say that wouldn't I.

____________

Meanwhile beyond dispute is the fact the two 51 Squadron Nimrod R1's operated out of RAF Waddington have been given a, for now at least, 3 month stay of execution (was mentioned in the opening question at this week's PMQs) and are both on station out in the North Africa/Middle East region carrying out their Intelligence, Surveillance, Target Acquisition, and Reconnaissance role (one operating out of Seeb in Oman supporting Operation Herrick, and the other from RAF Akrotiri in Cyprus believed to be monitoring the situation in Libya.)

The R1's replacement is not scheduled to arrive in service until 2014 (only a three year gap then (if it arrives on time) created by the Treasury driven SDSR of last Autumn, better than a ten year wait I suppose. The SDSR basically took a risk certain assets wouldn't be needed for a few years and within six months it's 'blown up' in their inexperienced, know the cost of everything but the value of nothing, faces and caused a re-think (luckily for the politicians just in time re Nimrod R1 and HMS Cumberland.)

I also note the RAF don't appear to have been heavily engaged in bombing missions since Saturday, while the French have been pretty prominent. I don't suppose them having the Charles De Gaulle sat on station just off the Libyan coast has anything to do with that. I never thought I'd say this but militarily thank f**k for the French.



I imagine my view has been covered already but basically I have said that the deficit needs to be addressed but in a measured way rather than the politically driven 'tax and axe' agenda of the millionaire Tories who by and large have little empathy for what it's like to be working class in this country. Taking money out of the pockets of the cash constrained will create hardship and division as well as taking money directly out of the economy. Not too sure how businesses are expected to grow when their services are no longer affordable with incomes squeezed. I expect the economy will grow but slowly (very slowly) and at a cost of higher unemployment and bigger welfare payments leading to bigger deficits - which in turn will lead to higher taxes and more cuts to essential public services. Although not so essential if you can afford private health insurance and your children are privately educated I suppose.



In my opinion either Gaddafi will prevail in Libya (with much bloodshed) or the country will become split East and West accompanied by a civil war (with much bloodshed.) If the coalition step in as 'the rebels' airforce then it's inevitable (as smart bombs aren't really that discriminating in populated areas) there will be colateral damage (with much bloodshed.) What's the next step, where's the exit strategy? Perhaps we'll end up with a permanently divided country with a NATO policed fortified de-militarised zone.