Not down one particular side though. Our right centre position was like a gate blowing in the wind in the 08 gf luckily we were able to fix it.

From what I remember of the 08 GF, in the first half we were getting broken down the middle not out wide, and weren't Saints tries in the second half down our left hand defence?

You could say it changed the flow of the game, maybe it did, or maybe something else did. Its hard to tell without looking at the DVD a number of times to see what other events happened.

Maybe Lauiti'iti coming on, or Scruton coming on, or Cunningham going off or any number of other situations on the pitch could have turned it around.

Also, who is to say that it was Ablett being removed from the centres that changed the game, rather than Ellis being moved from second row?

ok, I am being fecicious but this game is not black and white. the truth is that it was a tactic that had been used for most5 of the season to swap ellis and ablett around. You could say that JJB wasn't good enough becuase when Ali replaced him in the 2007 GF it changed the game

As I said earlier, who gives a poop? we won it does not matter.

All I said he was removed from the centre position because we were getting over run and replaced with Ellis in there, and the game changed. That was in oppossition to the statement that we won a GF with Ablett at centre.

However, once again I do dissagree wtih your last point about most of the season swapping Ellis and Ablett around.

Who played centre agains Wigan the week before the GF, who played against Sains in Play off, who played against Wakey before that? who played Wigan away before that? who played against the bulls before that?

The games before that Toopi played centre, been back from injury. He was rushed back because before that Ellis was used at Centre and to be honest that turned into quite a nightmare.

The fact is that Ablett had the centre position his own position starting the GF and the previous 5 games before that. Yet Inside 15 minutes of the GF where we were slightly over run this is changed.

I can't back it up, but I recall from the games I watched that ellis and ablett regularly swapped positions mid-game. In temrs of facts to back that up, I doubt you'll find any that prove it either way.

Also what do you define slightly over-run as? Is it that Ablett was slightly over-run? or the team was? If it was the team then I would say that no one player is particularly at fault. Of course the coach knowing best saw this and changed things about. Ellis & Ablett may have swapped at that time. Ali may well have come off the bench and added so go forward, solid defence or unpredictability.

Also, was it Ablett moving from centre of ellis moving from the pack which improved us? If we were getting overrun then a change in the pack is more likely to change the flow of the game at that stage

Everyone knows that Ablett and Ellis were interchanged at centre whenever they were both fit. Ellis spoke about it, the coach spoke about it and it was discussed at length on here most of the year ( the view of some of us was that it wasn't working - especially as we were rotating Smith and Hall as well). However, Ablett was not replaced at right centre by Ellis in the GF. He was replaced by Senior. The fact that Ellis and Ablett intrchanged during the whole game at centre is irrelevent to the point. DISA is wrong - and clearly didn't watch or can't remember the match.
That was a tactical shrewd move to counter an attacking pattern Saints came up with. The fact we did this makes me think that the coaching staff and players at Leeds were well prepared for it. Oh, and by the way we won the GF with Ablett in the centres and Senior and Ellis. Just like we won the GF with Ali, Ellis, JJB and Ablett in the second row.

Hooray. Hooray. Hooray.

A modicum of sense.

DISA, don't worry about the personal abuse. I won't report you for it. I am not sensitive at all. You'd have to be a complete lifeless turd to cry to a mod about what someone says about you on here.

However, I am going to use it as an excuse for a cheap shot.......

Are you sure you didn't see Phil Daly shoring up our right centre in the Grand Final?

Not dissagreeing earlier in season, and even mid season. But it didn't happen in those games prior to the GF.



Again I am not dissagreeing with you. I am not critisizing Ablett, and nor have I done on eithe post on this thread.

I repeat again. We were getting over run in that first quarter of the first half, and we changed things by putting Ablett to second row and Ellis to centre.

Whether we won the GF because of either change In the game I dont really give a poop. But we did not win a GF with Ablett at Centre. We won a GF because of the changes made.

we turned a GF round after this point, doesn't mean that the win was because of it, or even contributed. that is opinion.

:3tosyg7a

Fair enough then. But the only fact then is that we won a GF :3tosyg7awhen

true. we Also won a GF when Ellis was taken away from the pack

Like we had done all year? Yes?



Where did Senior move to and where was Ellis - left or right?

BTW, all season long Ablett did not put on as appalling a defensive display as Ellis did in the CC Semi.

Not sure where that takes the discussion or what the relevance is but there you go.

Leeds won a GF with Ablett starting at right centre appears to be the only facts confirmed here.

thank you

all this arguing about what happened in the GF is pointless, i think its clear that we won the GF despite the RHS rather than because of it,

there is a weakness there, we know there is a weakness there and so does everybody else in the league, the question is whether or not, as we did last year, we can win the league in spite of that weakness,

my point is that question doesnt need to be asked, Watkins is clearly too young to be a first choice centre, we can see that our esteemed coach agrees in how often he doesnt start, which is a centre as a rarity in RL,

we have plenty of cap space, we dont need to move ablett out there, he is a very average centre, and a decent prospect at 2nd row, give him a 2nd row berth, give him a position to call his own, moving him around has stagnated his progress imo

when we have cap space going spare, it seems a poor choice not to use it, when we clearly have a weakness, if Watkins booms and becomes the new inglis or folau there is nothing to stop us moving or dropping whoever comes in, if he doesnt, and he gets fatigued or out of his depth then we have a top quality replacement for him to learn from, rather than needing to risk him, or rely on an a player who was unproven regardless of his injuries and a 2nd row with obvious faillings from centre,

Good. I was beginning to think it was just me.



Good, as above. Watkins again was directly at fault for the Hicks try on Sunday.

It's a continuing problem but I'm afraid it's what you get (and expect) when asking a promising 17 year old to do the job of an experienced centre.

Watkins will never become the new Inglis or Folau laying in the acadamy. I'd much rather he continued to be treated like he is at the moment. When he has come on he has done well. If he continues then he can make the position his own.

I would also argue, that without his flexability, Ablett may have struggled to get much game time in the seoncd row. If anything it has improved his development.

No it isn't. Expand upon that opinion and I will rebut it.

I don't think there is a weakness. I don't care if the rest of the league perceive a weakness. They couldn't exploit it sufficiently last year and show little or no signs of doing so this year..

No he isn't. How old is Israel Falou? Why is there a lower age limit on being first choice?

I can't see it. I don't think the coach can. He may be keeping him on his toes, or keeping him fresh. Jamie Peacock was on the bench Sunday, by your logic does that make him our 3rd best prop?

Do we? How much? How have you come by this information?

Who is there available to use it on that would improve our situation?
No we don't.

Awesome use of that all important cap space. Also that will really help boost changing room morale. How are you going to sell that proposition to the player you're trying to sign?

,The "top quality" guy you've signed on the basis that he'll only play if Watkins isn't up to it and if he is, will be sat in the stands. Just what will this "top quality" player be passing on to Watkins, who has displaced him from the 1st team?

Your propositions are all over the place and I also love the way you, DISA and other pass off ill informed opinion as fact.

why? neither Inglis or Folau were gifted a place in the centres like Watkins has been, both played a lot on the wing, and Inglis played FB a fair bit as well,



would he? i dont believe that at all, i think he would still have got plenty of runs at 2nd row

I dont know what you are banging your head at. What as left or right got to do with anything?

Did Ellis go to centre, did Ablett get moved to second row?

At the time he was behind jjb,ellis,kirke and ali in the pecking order for second row so i disagree with that.

Senior and the right centre swapped places during the GF. This in the opinion of many was one of the key reasons why leeds won the GF

The answer to that would almost certainly get me banned.

he may have done, but considering the quality and experience of the other players in his position, any games he would have been played would have been influenced by his ability to cover a number of positions. Much like Tansey was used.