I don't think we have a team that's capable of competing in cup, league and play offs. Too many players who are simply too old, too knackered and too mentally jaded to contest every game.

Gotcha's point about management of the fringe players holds true, I think. I'm sure there are coaches who'd approach things differently. However, to McDermott's credit, he's come up with a way of playing where we're able to utilise two legendary halves who now lack any pace whatsoever. Inevitably, this reduces our attacking options but a motivated and experienced defence can nullify this limitation - but only when our defence is at the very peak of its game. I'll settle for this - I believe McGuire and Sinfield have given sufficient to this team over the years to be given the chance to retire on their terms.

Can quite understand the views of others who are less than happy with this approach though.

FWIW I'm not as sanguine as some that the side will feature in the top four next season. I simply don't see why the problems in the league that have bedevilled McDermott's tenure should evaporate in the future. If the team was capable of a successful 27 (or however many) game league campaign I think we'd have seen at least some evidence of it.

Being elite players dosnt make them machines

I agree but if they cannot perform the skills under pressure/fatigue where are the benefits of full time training?

McDermott got slated because he played players like JJB with potentially career ending injuries. If we don't get to OT perhaps the losses to Bradford and London will have had some significance in that? Leeds will have at least two away games against sides they haven't beaten away from home this season. Finishing 6th is definitely a handicap in getting to OT.

The losses to Bradford and London were not because of poor team selections - it was 100% attitude! The team on the park were more than a match for their counterparts, and should really have won both games by plenty (and I mean no disrespect to London or Bradford) - poor attitude kept both teams in those games and ultimately were our downfall. Minds on Wembley is the main excuse thrown up for this, but we lose games like them every year - our senior players (Peacock apart) simply do not generally perform against lower teams in insignificant games.

There's some truth in that. The team against London was good enough to win for 60 minutes. But switched off for the last quarter.

Given the Top 4 looks like finishing up as:

1. Castleford
2. Saints
3. Wigan
4. Warrington

Saints will lose to Wigan, meaning our 2nd week match is an away trip to Saints. Easily winnable with 13 men.

We'll then have a trip to either Wigan or Warrington in the final week. Again, tough but eminently winnable.

Not to go into too much detail but for Saints to finish 2nd means they must lose to Hudds this weekend, and a Hudds win guarantees that the loser of Wigan vs Wire this week will end up in 5th.

Its a harder run of games, that is true, but as has been pointed out over various seasons.

Taking the 7th team out of it (if we don't win that then we have failed), we have an away game against one of the top 4 teams, followed by another.

The differences between that and what top has to do is that its home vs away , which is something that I don't think should worry a champion team. Its certainly something this group of players has shown capable of in the past in games which really matter.

the other difference is that we get a week off in the top 4 if we win the first game. Again, at this stage of the season the jury is out on whether the break is useful or not with regards to momentum or fatigue.

It is harder to win from 6th, but its not as hard as it was back in the day of the 5/6 team playoffs where every spot mattered.

So if Huddersfield win and Cas get League Leaders, it actually turns into an easier situation, than if Saints win and Cas lose.

If Huddersfield win, the likelihood is that we will not meet one of Wigan or Warrington before a final if either got there. And I would imagine that assuming Cas lose first game, should they make a final eliminator they would probably be the call of any team in club call.

Saints and Cas will finish in top 2. Has the top 2 ever looked less threatening? Funny old game.

Yeah there's still a lot of what ifs involved but IF Wigan lose on Thursday and finish 5th then we could see a scenario of Wigan and Leeds being the two choices for the clubcall team to make in the semis......good luck to whoever could have that choice.

The key difference to finishing 6th compared to the 5th of other years is that we face the highest ranked loser from the top 4 games if we get through the first week, not the lowest ranked like in 2012 and 2011.

Had we had to face the highest ranked loser in those years it would've been Warrington away instead of Catalans in 2012. It would've been Wigan away instead of Hudds in 2011. This year I'm not sure facing the highest ranked loser will present such a difference compared to the lowest ranked. Looks like it's going to be a top 2 of Saints and Cas.....and I don't think both will win in the first week of the playoffs leaving us to go to one of their places.

People have mentioned we weren't able to win at Saints earlier in the year but it was one that even McDermott admitted a few weeks later that he got the tactics wrong of thinking we could just barge over the line. If we were to go there again we are a different prospect and team in playoff mode, win or lose we definitely won't employ the same tactics that we did that night.

And Hudds may well be in the top 4 too, and they're constant playoff failures. If Warrington complete the top 4 then there's hardly a GF winners ring to show between those 4 teams apart from the ones Roby and Wellens picked up many moons ago and Lunt's win with us.

Pretty similar to our team and the CC... until this year

I would hope most top sides would consider a home venue an advantage? especially in what is likely to be a tight game. Unless you have injuries to key players a week off is no real benefit in some case it can be the opposite.
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Home games can be an advantage, but it can also add to the pressure. Leeds have shown that they can win away in the play-offs. Some of the teams we could be facing in week 2 it could be debated that they haven't shown ability to win play-off games, of any sort.

A little O/T but a post on the saints board suggests they've actually performed better away from Langtree Park than they have at home since the stadium opened. No idea whether this is true but no other poster has contradicted him.

Not really a surprise.Knowsley Road always was a tough, intimidating place to go for the away team, much in the same way Central Park was for the pies.Langtree Park is a great stadium but doesn't hold the fear factor yet.

So likely top 8 of:

1. Castleford
2. St Helens
3. Wigan
4. Huddersfield
5. Warrington
6. Leeds
7. Catalans
8. Widnes

Week 1:

Castleford v Huddersfield
St Helens v Wigan
Leeds v Catalans
Warrington v Widnes

Week 2:

St Helens v Leeds
Huddersfield v Warrington - too close to call

Week 3:

would think Cas would club-call the winner of the Huddersfield-Wire game, sending us away to Wigan again.

Leeds have played a total of 28 (71%) SL Play-Off games (including GFs) covering the period 2004 to 2013 inclusive.

Wigan have played 24 (67%)

St Helens have played 22 (55%)

Warrington have played 15 (40%)

Hull have played 14 (36%)

Huddersfield have played 12 (25%)

Not in the style of an AP/Keith Swiftcorn/William Eve league table where games against those teams he chooses and only those games count.

It's all a bit different if Wire beat Wigan and Hudds beat Saints next week.

Would be something like:

1. Cas
2. St Helens
3. Warrington
4. Huddersfield
5. Wigan
6. Leeds
7. Widnes
8. Catalans

Cas vs Hudds
Sts vs Wire
WIGAN vs Cats
LEEDS vs Widnes

Couldn't pick a winner of the first two games. Could easily be the away sides sending us to Cas and Wigan to Saints, with the winners away to Hudds and Wire.

It'll be an odd situation where the teams finishing 5th and 6th are going to be shorter at the bookies to win the GF than the teams finishing 1st and 2nd.

So those were a sub-set that only included matches involving those five clubs. Ok, get it now.

Only Leeds and St Helens of those five clubs have qualified for all ten Play-Off campaigns. Wigan eight, Warrington seven, Huddersfield six.

Hull made it into eight Play-Off series (including a Grand Final appearance) but miss out and while Bradford have now fallen away (no appearances in last five Play-Off series) they made every series until 2008 and were a three time winner, including making two GF's in the specified period - winning one.

Weren't Swiftcorn's limited to individual season/s?