I, like everyone else on here, loves this sport and have had numerous discussions with people about why it's the greatest game in the world. But right now, I struggle to defend it. Even allowing for how good the NRL is, that's one league in the world. So I too try to work out where it's all gone wrong, and for me there's 3 big areas (I know others will think there's other reasons):

The lack of international rugby and identity. You look at the England football team and the young players coming through. For so long we produced solid workers with little flair, but that's changing and largely because they looked at the DNA and worked towards creating these players. Imagine if we had a thriving international game where the RFL set out the way we wanted to play - with creative half back, speed in the backs, footwork in the second row, and set out a plan for the academies to follow. Then as players reach international level, there's salary cap exemptions.

On the back of this there's the lack of reserve grade. So many of the greats talk about their time playing in the reserves on their way up, and at the end of their career. Youngsters would get so much more learning from playing with and against some big names than people who go back to their day job on a Monday morning. It's also a step up in class to further ingrain the DNA.

Then there's relegation. The game doesn't have enough quality to make this work. Right now the teams at the bottom rely on guys who can do a job, but it's really the prime time to bring youngsters through - who would have been cutting their teeth in the reserves. It makes for a stronger league where over a period of time teams can build to be at the top.

Last night was a game between the 10th and 7th placed teams. Do people really believe the standard was really worse than between the 10th and 7th placed teams of previous years?

Absolutely, miles worse. Some of the bottom teams between 2000-2010 would be beating this years Saints and Warrington team with ease. The whole competition is massively low on any quality,

You cant possibly believe that. Some of the bottom teams from 2000s would beat the top 2 teams currently with ease? Wowser.

Definitely, without a shadow of doubt. London just beat them last week, and they wouldn’t have picked up a single point in that period. You really are kidding yourself with this argument Marty.

It was also the 2018 Champions v 2017 Champions.
These were the teams in 2007 grand final.
The competition has certainly got weaker.

Paul Wellens Fullback Brent Webb
Ade Gardner Winger Scott Donald
Matthew Gidley Centre Clinton Toopi
Willie Talau Centre Keith Senior
Francis Meli Winger Lee Smith
Leon Pryce Stand Off Danny McGuire
Sean Long Scrum Half Rob Burrow
Nick Fozzard Prop Kylie Leuluai
Keiron Cunningham Hooker Matt Diskin
Jason Cayless Prop Jamie Peacock
Lee Gilmour 2nd Row Jamie Jones-Buchanan
Chris Flannery 2nd Row Gareth Ellis
Jon Wilkin Loose Forward Kevin Sinfield (c)
James Roby Interchange Ali Lauitiiti
Mike Bennett Interchange Ryan Bailey
James Graham Interchange Ian Kirke
Maurie Fa'asavalu Interchange. Carl Ablett

People have selective memories when it comes to remembering the game of the past. I think what's happened is teams have adapted and innovated their defenses at a faster rate than teams have managed to innovate and adapt their attacking structures. The last time we saw a major attacking innovation was when Maguire introduced the 2 attacking lines into Wigan's play almost a decade ago. Leeds and Cas have been the outliers in that time, but we've not seen any new ideas from coaches for a while.

No sure why you bringing those teams up mate. Pretty sure those teams didnt finish 10th or 7th.

As I said above yesterday we had the 2018 Champions v 2017 Champions

I fully agree with your astute observations. However with regard to your team selections I would suggest dropping Ferres, Myler, Sutcliffe now. If Walker is fit I would play him at 6 with McLelland at 7 and tell them they are in for the rest of the season and to concentrate on last play attacks.. Otherwise play their natural attacking game. So Golding should now get a run at fullback and Smith on the bench

When Watkins leaves in a couple of weeks time I would play Smith in the back row with perhaps Sutcliffe on the bench. Hopefully Ward and the pensioners will soon be fit to allow some rotation.

London beat us by the golden point.. I don't suppose the fact that we had six first reamers rested made any difference then???

I think you missed the point.

Im fully behind most of the changes but i wouldnt shift Walker he's still learning his FB role to change that now would be a wasted gamble.
Unfortunately we are stuck with one of Myler Lolohea Sutcliffe in one of the HB roles for now to partner Mclellend.
Also Goldings firmly on the outer so i cant see that changing either.

We are in serious trouble and the most obvious weakness to correct is the lack of decent halfbacks. The combinations of Myler and Sutcliffe simply do not work and the biggest gamble would be to keep playing them in these positions. Myler needs a break from the pressure and Sutcliffe is at best a backrower on the bench to cover several positions.

I accept your point about Walker changing roles. But he is young, talented and adaptable and IMO has the skills to turn some of the opportunities close to the line into tries on last plays. Playing at 6 he would get his hands on the ball more times and not have to do the physical work of clearing our own lines.

McLelland has a better kicking and passing game than Myler or Sutcliffe and could do the organising leaving Walker to do what he does best ie run at the opposition and his footwork would produce wins where at present we are producing losses. Both are not scared to tackle and would do better than Myler & Sutty

The team has shown a much better attitude and work rate which has improved our defense dramatically. Now we need to address the woeful lack of ideas in attack and I would out my faith in Walker and McLelland, along with Newman, to make it happen. We simply have to start winning games and the time has come to try something different. The youngsters should be told to go out and play their natural game and they will not be dropped if they make a few errors along the way. They cannot do worse that those we have tried at half back.

Perhaps Muzzi should be given a run in the back row too.

It was interesting that Agar in his presser mentioned they have had to go back to basics to fix up the defensive issues (which they have in a big way) but that has affected the attack so they now have to focus on that aspect

Id give Mcllelland a run alongside Myler, that literally can’t be any worse than what were going with at the moment

I think the opposing view, that teams from 15 years ago would somehow walk it today, is delusional. Conversely if you put the current Saints team against say the Leigh team of 2005? we’d possibly see a record scoreline.

I think it’s a thing that occurs in almost all sports, we have the same with football fans constantly bemoaning the lack of talent today compared to 20 years ago. Again, I think it conflates quality with entertainment when the 2 are very different.

As I said compare line speed, defensive intensity, wrestle, men in the tackle to 15 years ago and it’s a million miles apart. As is the time and space therefore available to exploit by the talented players of that generation.

Could the talented players from then be top players today? Some would, some wouldn’t. Because the demands are different and the space and opportunity to express talent is so much more limited today.

You mention the Leeds, Saints and Bradford teams, here are some players from the squads of those teams:
Wayne McDonald
Ashley Gibson
Jordan Tansey
Danny Williams
Shane Millard
Jamie Thackray
Chris Feather
Liam Botham
Stuart Reardon
Karl Pryce
Aaron Smith
Chris Bridge
Ben Harris
Ian Henderson
Andy Smith
Marcus St Hilaire
Adam Watene
Stanley Gene
Matt Cook
Gray Viane
Ian Hardman
Keith Mason
Mike Bennett
Tim Jonkers
Andy Bracek
Ricky Bibey

And that’s without looking too hard. That’s a decent list of throughly average players. I think it’s easy to look back now and simply remember Vainikolo, Long, Gleeson, McGuire etc and forget some of the average dross that was there.

It’s also notable how much smaller squads were back then. Rarely did they have to use beyond a 25 man squad and when you think back it was much rarer to have long term injuries.

On average between 2000-2005 Leeds used 25 players in a season.
On average between 2013-2018 Leeds used 30 players per season.
2017 & 2018 have both been the joint highest at 32 players. So far this season I make it 29.

Regarding Ferres last night,How far can you actually run alongside someone without putting a hand on them before it becomes obvious that you couldn't give a thuck ?

A lot of them players would be playing regular imo in SL these days and they were fill in players for the top teams back then. Of course fitness and training and techniques improve over the years thats a given and we have to assume that the players from 15/20 years ago were undertaking todays advanced regimes as a given but if you do i don't see how you can make an argument.

He wandered around the field at the end of the game on Friday night, failing to acknowledge the fans for their support with so little enthusiasm. This is the rotten apple in the barrel. he doesn't care one hoot about the team or their cause. If he remains next season I for one will not be renewing our season passes. HE MUST BE GOT RID OF!

We signed an England international with Ferres. Remember thinking at the time he was a good age and an international back rower - just what we need.

He's been anything but. His Leeds career is coming to an end, thankfully, seein Clubb out pace him to score is all he will be remembered for.

I agree that he needs to go, and that’s been clear for some time.
I’m going to be controversial though: his Leeds career has been defined by a sequence on niggling injuries. It does happen.
I would question his attitude to conditioning through periods, and he is a liability for penalties which is his behaviour... but I’m sure he would have loved to replicate that England form with Leeds.
There are things he can rightly be criticised for but we should always understand that RL players are human too, and nobody sets out to do badly.

Something that has to be taken into consideration in the 'has the standard plummeted' debate is the way in which defensive structures have improved beyond recognition in the last 10 years or so. As someone else has posted, this hasn't helped the entertainment one jot, but it does make comparisons with the teams 20 years ago that much harder.

I do think that there's something to be said for the top teams not having the same number of quality players that they used to, but I think that's true compared to even 6 or 7 years ago, let alone a generation ago. Take Leeds and Wigan, our 2011 challenge cup final was littered with players that would walk into the current Saints and Wire teams, but equally we're better than our late 90s and early 2000s teams too. The salary cap and the lure of Australia for our better players means that the top teams aren't as good, but I'd say the average level is probably about the same. If the standard across the board was that bad then it would reflect in the national team, which is every bit as good as it has been for some time.

On last Friday, two teams that are really not looking impressive at all. I thought Wigan were a little better over the 80, but Leeds' size had me worried, especially when we had our young lads one, there were some physical mismatches at times. Can't see Leeds going down for the same reason, eventually you'll have more physically than at least London if not 3 or 4 more teams come the end of the season.

There is absolutely no way the defences are an improvement on the 2000-2010 period. In that time you had constant high intensity, in your face, hard hitting defence. None of this soft outlawing of certain tackles we have now. What we have now is an increase in the wrestling technique, I give you that, and a pool of referrees who simply do not understand the rules and how to enforce them. Other than that it is very much sanitised version of what we had.

Not as aggressive, but more organised. You never used to get any of the wrestling/lying on to anything like the same extent. Control of the ruck is a massive, massive part of the game now for everyone in a way that I don't think it was prior to 2010.

One on one defending, fair enough.

I agree with you on controlling the ruck, but insist that is a problem of how refs interpret the rules. They simply don't work to them, and as a result ruin the game as a whole. If they did it properly we would need to get back to the actual tackle technique and defensive line, rather than the half hearted efforts needed these days.