The thing that worries me more than anything is that we have not looked like a well coached attacking side since McD took over. In 2011 we had a terrible start to the season (admittedly without McGuire or Peacock), but there were many excuses flowing for the lack of attacking organisation. All the usual "new coach, new patterns, it's not clicking" bullS4!t, but over 2 years on we still look like the players only meet 2 hours before every game and then have their memories wiped straight after.
I said this before, we only look organised playing the most simple of game plans - having Delaney, Clarkson and/or JJB hit the ball at angles off quick PTB's from Peacock and Kylie. It moves us down the field but doesn't score points. Our 5th tackle plays are hilariously bad near the try line when we have (or had!) Watkins unused at 3 (when McBanana gets more out of him you know you're fekked).

Completely agree - the fact we have finished 5th two years running shows our 'run rate' in comparison to the likes of Wigan, Warrington and Saints. Winning the GF masks much of the mediocrity we see on a weekly basis. The Huddersfield CC game was a big turning point - it showed they cannot simply rock up an win when it matters. This definitely cost them the loss against Saints has their confidence will have really taken a hammering.

Leeds were never the most structured attacking side under either Smith or McClennan relying on attacking from deep with real pace and great support play from McGuire. Our options close to the opponents line have always been poor, mainly due to all the pivots having a non-existent short kicking game. Now the pace has gone they really struggle.

I'm amazed JJB and Burrow were singled out by the coach for praise after the game. Burrow had one decent run and JJB ran well in the second half, but both efforts were overshadowed by negative play IMO (penalties, missed tackles).

For me, Hardaker, Delaney and Sutcliffe were the main positives. Kirke imposed himself well.

Clarkson gave a terrible miss for the Houghton try. McShane and Singleton were also poor at marker though on that occasion.

Vickery was terrible but don't let his performance mask the inadequacies of the others - especially Hall who looked unfit and clumsy, and Moon who had a habit of disappearing in defence. All three tries were scored on their flank.

Agreed

The question going forward is BMD the man to turn the team around and integrate the next generation or will he go, perhaps with his reputation in tact and leave it to someone else to carry the can of the couple of years of not winning much the development of a new side will bring ?

The 'great' Wigan side of the 80s / 90s rarely dealt on sentiment or reputation ... When you got to 31 / 32 at Central Park, you were gotten rid of.

Luckily for the Pies at the time, there were schmucks in the Leeds board room who were more than happy to wave cheque books at whoever they released. For every Ellery Hanley (a player who could have stuck it at Wigan until his mid 30s) there was an Andy Gregory ... An Andy Goodway or even a Shaun Wane.

Meanwhile at Leeds, when you reach 32, you're handed another 2 year deal ....

Burrow made some important tackles and did cause some problems for their defence and almost got through on several occasions. JJB made too many mistakes but put in a huge effort once again in defence and in taking the ball up and I think his positives outweighed his negatives. Some of his teammates may have made less errors but they weren't getting around the pitch in the same way he was.

Hardaker seems popular with many fans but IMO his attacking play is just limited to his physical presence, which sees him make good runs but which not often enough lead to scores. He runs strongly but doesn't join the line to create space for others as Webb used to do. He too often dies with the ball and can't pass for toffee. We looked better on attack with Watkins at fullback but maybe worse on defence.

McShane had more game time but didn't use it too well. Bad mistake in losing the ball on the first tackle on a repeat set and didn't have a clue on restarts much to Sinfields frustration.

In general hardaker is very good defender especially one on one near the line. In attack he is again illusive and a good broken field runner, but doesn't chime into the line well bar the vickery try at Wigan and his passing game is poor. Myself watching this season I think I vastly underestimated what Webb brought to our team. Not saying it was the wrong decision to let him go but the work he used to do is not being picked up by our half backs

He will stay because the virtually the whole is signed up for another 2 years - so unless GH is going to terminate some contracts then what you see now is what you will get albeit at a much slower pace. Yeaman left Sinfield standing for the blown try in the second half - The captain is slow now just think what he will be like in 2 years time!! JJB struggles to get off a man in the tackle now in two years time he will not be able to

I bet Kylie get yet another extension alongside Peacock.

I almost pulled the princess from sleeping beauty at magic kingdom orlando today, then the wife turned up. Oh we'll, almost is just so goody.

Are those moaning that senior players that have been given extended contracts the same posters that a few Weeks ago were saying Kylies new deal was well deserved and that he was in the best form of his Leeds career?

Oh what I would give to have someone like George Burgess in our team. Once again awesome today. I think that`s 5 tries he has scored this season.
Agree with what has been said on here. Sinfield, McGuire and Burrow are past their best. Maybe Sinfield to LF but we must get a decent half back with a good kicking game and or someone who can move the team round the park.
Another year or two with those guys around and we will become Bradford Mark 2

You tell me?

I was happy to see Leuluai extend his current deal and I'm still of that opinion now.

__________



Compared to who? Sometimes it's better to keep hold than throw a ball forward or a bullet pass five yards



Is that right ? Just thinking about this past month perhaps you'll remind me who was it that put Achurch over at Odsal ? And who was it in the game V St Helens who sent Watkins in for Leeds' opener? Oh and who was it that made the outside break and put Sinfield over back on the inside at the Etihad ? And finally who was it in the same game that instinctively tipped the ball to Watkins to give Vickery a walk-in ?

Compared to Webb before his injury. I prefer a creative fullback that joins the line with good angles to create opportunities on both sides. Needs to read a game and have good hands. Hardaker has done a good job at fullback but his first thought is to go himself and he is reluctant to pass. He relies on brawn before brains and IMO is a better winger than a fullback.

So despite your claim that Hardaker cannot pass for toffee you have nothing to say about the actual instances in recent games where he's done the very thing you say he cannot do. Why is that?

I've given recent instances all within the past month that's shown he can and does pass (although unclear if he's paid in toffee or not but it's a possibility) so here's your opportunity to back up your soundbite with examples of poor passes or I'd even be interested in the passes you think he should have thrown but didn't. Or are you going to do your usual and expect people to simply accept your opinion without the need to back it up with examples.

BTW although I didn't use it earlier Hardaker also put Ryan Hall over for his only try in the recent past. Is that one in eight games now? I thought this Joel Moon of yours was supposed to be laying tries on a plate for fun for his winger? They've had time now to form an understanding - played every minute of every game this season as a pairing without disruption and under a quality coach how difficult is it to get good early ball in their hands to wreak havoc.

There are always exceptions.

My toffee comment was a deliberate exaggeration intended as a general and light hearted aside rather than a precise assessment. IMO Hardaker is not a good passer and as such has limitations at fullback. This doesn't mean he isn't worth his place or that I do not appreciate his contributions. But he may well be a better winger than a fullback.

Lighten up tvoc. You do seem more preoccupied with picky verbal exactness rather than the obvious point being made

When the only examples given for scrutiny are counter to the claim that Hardaker cannot pass for toffee - is it accurate to describe these instances as exceptions? They'll only become exceptions when we finally get to see your list that you've based this claim on - people will note you've been asked for counter examples but have chosen to not give any as yet.

I'll perhaps lighten up when people are able to validate their opinions with examples that we can at least discuss.

I've given several instances in just the past month where Hardaker has given good ball both left (to Hall) and right (to Watkins) that has resulted in tries.

It has been noted.

In a very recent game Hardaker game a murder pass (which might even have been forward as well) to young Singleton I think it was. When he played centre he showed a great reluctance to pass on many occassions. He is a devastating runner with a great physical presence but IMO creative passing is not his strongest suit. He is young and may well improve this aspect of his play particularly with a Champion coach

He must be learning well from our long terms pivots then.

One hospital pass? Hardly conclusive.

You word it 'reluctance to pass' when he was at centre. The other way to read it is that he backs himself to do some damage and go on his own. Which he did. Ablett is similar when he plays centre, I'd say his strength to break the line and to make metres driving is stronger than his ability to pass.

Related on these hospital/ineffective passes, bit of a bug bear as viewer.

Just looking back to the Hull game, the ball may have gone flat through 2 ball players hands before it land with the forward. By the time he gets it the defence was up and around him and made jack go forward. A wasted play in the set of 6.

Something we see every week BB when we attack so flat and utilise the "line ball" so often.

Nothing conclusive but wasn't intelligent reading of the situation. But it is just my opinion. You word it "he backs himself to do damage and go on his own" The other way to read that is a bit greedy. I have already said his physical strength is way ahead of his passing abilities so we agree then?

Hardaker is a big asset to the side but Watkins showed some lovely stuff in attack when he was at FB which was very fruitfull. Be interesting to see if he keeps developing his skills.

We don't help ourself. Old cliche but we are our own worst enemy sometimes.

I'd say his amibition with ball in hand combined with his footwork and speed are in front of his passing abilities. No brainer. So we're on the same page there more or less.

He is developing week in week out. We have a class player on our hands and he will develop further no doubt. The individual talents I talk about above he's had more practice at and how he beds in at FB (linking in with his team, decision making, timings) will take longer to fine tune. Wasn't too long ago he was carving his way as an up and coming centre, now he's an established star fullback.

Sounds more like a recent example of a starting hooker's pass.

As you can't find anything easily identifiable (very recent, unknown recipient - all a bit vague) perhaps the way forward is to look out for future examples rather than past ones and drop them in to here for discussion.

Who knows you might even come to realise your critique is unjustified and you may moderate your opinion.

I don't mind Hardaker not passing when he's capable of scoring the type of try he ran in last night but if a pass is on to a player in a better position I would still expect him to give it.



Examples? Oh I forgot you don't do examples - how about comparing Opta 'try assists' instead or would they be mis-leading?