No that was just poor, Lilley MAY have made it (doubt it) but always the chance of defenders coming across.....Watkins had a walk in. Sutcliffe and Watkins need to work on their chemistry because those two cost us the game tonight with their f*ck ups.

Also IF everyone was fit for the cup game next week I think McDermott would go with tried and tested and go this

Hardaker
Briscoe - Watkins - Moon - Hall
Sutcliffe - McGuire
Galloway - Burrow - Cuthbertson
Ferres - Ablett
JJB

Delaney - Garbutt - Singleton - Lilley

Up until a few weeks ago I'd say Falloon ahead of Lilley but not sure he would now (personally would start Lilley ahead of Sutcliffe but doubt it'll happen). As good as Keinhorst has been, Moon wasn't bad before injury and can't see Watkins being dropped so even though it'd be very harsh I could see him dropping Keinhorst, as Delaney although held together by tape is a firm favourite of McDermott's and would get the sub bench spot. Hall would get in ahead of Handley on reputation as he candy things like the match winning try vs Saints in the playoff semi that other wingers simply can't do...as poor as he's been he still comes up with big plays in big games, you just don't drop those guys.

Those bombs from brought are a nightmare. He gets more height on them than anyone in SL plus some swerve at last second. Another close one slips away. Reckon that is 7 out of 8 lost. Can we Get a first away win and keep season alive? Ferres again worked hard and think gave away 3 penalties. Kind of sums up our bungalow season, nothing upstairs. Great verbal support but it echoes my memories of watching lufc away in early eighties, the worse the play the better the support.

In terms of the season as a whole Ferres started off slow but then picked up nicely until injury hit. First game back tonight and his penalties were ever so costly.....can it be written off as the 'occasion' being back at Hudds for the first time getting to him? Possibly, we'll have to wait and see.

Sutcliffe should have found Watkins, he had a walk in and briscoe outside. Big fan of Jimmy k. WAtkins is down on confidence but the guy is class, form is temporary. Last season Watkins play was a classy as any centre play I have ever seen in a Leeds shirt. He will be back. Jimmy k's improving game opens up another longer term option of possibly having Joel moon in the halves. Keep your teeth in Stevo I only said possible.

I'm not writing anyone off by expressing an opinion on areas that require attention. Turning a blind eye to shortcomings or worse 'doing a Schofield' won't help.

Did smith get on ?

Yes, somewhere around the hour mark - think he was off again for the final five - so around a fifteen minute spell.

Yes, you could probably hear the collective groan from certain Leeds fans as it gave them one less thing to moan about post loss.

You would hope the latter with Sutcliffe to the centre and Watkins to the wing.

Yep. If the FB can't catch them then you have only one option, stop them going up in the first place. Kick pressure on Brough was non existent.

If Moon is fit next week I would rest poor Watkins who is just so out of touch he would struggle to catch a cold at present. If Mags is fit too I would play Moon and Sutcliffe in the centres and Keinhorst in the 2nd row. Lilley has to stay in the halves even tvoc seems to have woken up to that finally.

Golding was awful at FB. The bombs were tricky, and maybe he had the right to ask his teammates why they were giving Brough half an hour to put them up, but other parts of his game were also dreadful. On attack he must have f******d up a dozen plays by getting in the way of pass or runner, he defended our attack better than Hudds attack.

But up until now you had turned both your blind eyes on Lilley before finally seeing the sunshine. If you opened them both up a bit further you will see the merits of young Golding too.

Reading through the thread I can see Watkins getting his usual helping. He dropped everything last night, maybe Sutcliffe didn't give him a scoring pass because he didn't think he'd catch it. Brian Carney, like myself, thought he needed the ball early. He clearly is having problems holding the pill when he gets flat passes under pressure, so get him deeper and give him the f******g thing early.
Watkins did do a very effective shift in defence, which flies in the face of him being lazy and not interested. He's out of form and his confidence is shot to bits. The Leeds attack as a whole is a complete shambles, and it's not all down to our number 3.

I don't think we got enough pressure on Brough. He had far too much time to get those bombs in and Golding had no chance. I'm certainly not writing him off. He has a great attitude and won't go hiding. We're not a million miles away in these games, but considering the lack of experience in our halves, what can we expect. I'm proud of the team for what they did last night. In the backs, only Watkins and Sutcliffe would have been considered starters at the beginning of the season. We're missing our best forward from last year and 3 back rowers that would be in the 17. Lots of teams are doing it tough with injuries, but throw in our loss of Sinny, JP and Kylie it's been extremely tough for us. Galloway is getting better each game and the youngsters will be learning more than we could imagine from this period. After seeing them last week and this, I'm confident that in a few years we'll be on the verge of another dynasty

Having been forced into a U-turn regarding 20 year old Lilley after previously writing his SL career off you continue with another ill judged attack on young Golding. I think it was you who oddly said he isn't going to be a winger after the Hull game and questioned his bravery into the bargain, something you sort of retracted after the Saints game in which he did well on the wing. So he failed to take 3 very difficult high bombs which not only had snow on them but we're spinning and dipping at the last minute too and on this evidence you now write him off as a fullback too. I didn't recall similar comments when our Man of Steel dropped far easier ones this season.

I note you made no mention of his good takes or the 17 tackles he made (double Hardaker's average) two of which were try savers.

Galloway and Garbutt were both excellent. Can't ask much more from your two props. Especially as with Achurch on (did he carry the ball at all last night?) and Burrow at hooker we are effectively playing with 4 forwards.

Based solely on what we've seen of their form this year, when everyone's back my centres would be Moon and Keinhorst and again JUST basing it on this year, IMO Handley would keep his spot in front of Hall

Lilley would keep his spot in the halves and Magsy (even though he's done nothing this year because he's hardly played) he comes back as he's the club skipper and main playmaker so he partners Lilley for me with Burrow starting hooker.

With everyone back Sutcliffe gets nowhere near a starting 13 spot for me based SOLELY on what we've seen this year.

It will be interesting what McD does when everyone is back but I expect Hall and Watkins to be regular starters based on what they've done before but both have been utter gash this season...SO FAR

Every week fans say they've got to close down brough, and not give him time and space. every week it doesn't happen. He makes time and space for himself- but as a player he needs less than most anyway to put in a great kick.

It's the fifth tackle play where you apply the pressure. If you win that collision and slow down the PTB then the kicker gets the ball and an advancing defence. He can sit deeper, but that means all his chasers are going to have to be deeper as well, or offside.

Watkins is on a hiding to nothing at the moment. He's been playing inside Golding and now briscoe for the last couple of weeks, and outside Sutcliffe and Achurch. He is our only threat down the whole of that side and teams know that he can't do a lot if you get up and at him.

Watkins clearly lacks confidence and it really didnt help that the first 3 passes to him were awful, he is a player out of form surrounded with no other threats and getting terrible ball.

We are really doing it tough right now, we have young players playing out of position, ones that need taking out of the firing line, and in Briscoe one who isnt really good enough, We can't make the amount of mistakes we made yesterday and we can't give away the amount of penalties we gave away. Some of that will come from getting players back and getting them in their right positions.

I dont think we are far away and look very much like a side who will fall ass backwards in to a win or two and put together some confidence and a run but time is running out.

It has ran out IMO (for this season). Even if we get some of the bodies back they will be rusty and not match fit. How long exactly do you think it should have taken to address a lot of the persistent problems: poor defence, poor control of ruck speed, paucity of attacking ideas near the line, structures etc? With regards to Watkins I did have a lot of sympathy for a long time, but it IS time for him to step up and look to impose himself more. Patience is now thin. As others have said, out of Moon, Keinhorst and Watkins the one least deserving of keeping his centre spot is, unfortunately, Watkins.

Both Keinhorst (who has proven himself to be an uncomplaining model professional) and Lilley do not deserve to lose their first team places.

After a full knee reconstruction I actually think Sutcliffe is building. Other than that I totally agree!

Here's one for ya! My personal opinion is that in a salary cap sport with the emergence of Handley and him looking the real deal I would be looking to move Hall or Briscoe on.

Brough often kicks on the fourth to avoid the pressure. When it is on the fifth our chasers often ARE deeper. They dont worry about chasing down the kick too hard- it's all about keeping the defensive structure and conserving energy. They rely on broughs boot to get them the extra yard or two rather than busting a gut to get there. 10 metres or twenty from the opposition line isn't a big deal to them. They often allow teams to make many more metres than them anyway- it's part of how they play. But having said all that brough needs less time than most to put in a great kick-he's a quick thinker and often avoids any on rushing defence with a step then puts in a kick- it's not often a defensive player puts a finger on him as he's putting in the kick (unless it's a late hit).

...building on full knee reconstruction does not explain his pish poor decision making or inability to take control of the team (compare and contrast with young Lilley).

As you say Handley (like Keinhorst and Lilley) should not now be dropped and maybe it IS time for Hall to be shipped on. Of the two (T.Briscoe and Hall) I think I would prefer to retain Briscoe.