not sure ill have time before Sunday


try before one away game...

Wasn't this fixture last year when you shouted "Tickle his bum" Loz?

I thought it was shouted first in the South Stand?

Wasn't that "W@nk his sister?!"

One or t'other. Still something weird to say.

Point proven! Nother one to add to the Bitter and Twisted Club.

2/3 of those big plays involve running down backs. Sure it's a neat play, but is it what we need from him? Is it what a forward should be noted for?

I agree forwards should be making big plays defending in the line and going forward with the ball not chasing back but in the context of the debate If jp or Ali were running down backs people would be coming in their pants. I'm not having a go at you mate but this is a great example of Kirke doing good stuff and you try and take it away from him. The bloke can't win. For his pay grade and skill level he is well down the pecking order in under achievement

Ali, burrow, Webb , cross , smith, Hauraki, senior, Jjb. Just a few blokes who will be on more wedge than kirke(some double and more) and have more natural talent but arnt bringing it to the party.

I think Kirke could do more but so could most of the team. But the bottom line is for what Kirke gets payed we are probably getting a better return cap wise than some of our eledged star players/bigger names

its crazy how Kirke gets the finger pointed at him when burrow, Ali, senior , watkins and others are about as useful as a glass hammer.

Wilko, do you know what Kirke gets paid?

He's been a first team player now for six seasons. People get the impression that he's some cheap junior. The last few weeks he has been one of our most experienced forwards. He should have stepped in in the absence of Peacock, Bailey, Kylie and Burgess and led the pack. As usual, he hid.

Why compare Kirke with the international stars in the team? I'd compare him to someone like Singleton or Ambler. Young kids who [ireally[/i will be cheap and who can already offer much more than he does.

He has no heart. If they'#re paying him £2.50 per week it's £2.49 more than he "earns".

I'm not taking it away from him, I have quantified them as 'neat' plays.

But I just demand more from the big man.

You listed his big plays and you could only come up with one big cruncher. That is where we are with the Gentle Giant. There's no smoke and mirrors, no being creative with the stats, he is just very un-impressive.

When he broke into the team in 2007 there was a point to him. He seemed to run with more gusto, attracting defenders etc but now in 2011 he doesn't really have any form and is surely one of the players we need to replace and evolve as a team. Logically with Ambler waiting in the wings it could be a missed opportunity.

I don't know what he gets paid. But I would be happy to bet everything I own that Ali, burrow , Webb , senior, cross, Jjb all earn more than Kirke.

Why compare? Because in a cap sport it's 100% about getting your moneys worth. Kirke shouldn't even be on the radar when it comes to blokes not delivering in the context of a cap sport! heart or no heart others are far more to blame.

Forget Kirke our marquee players are not getting the job done.

So Kirke been mentioned and blamed is ar$e wipe!

Ali, Burrow, Webb, senior, smith, Hauraki, cross! Once these guys have been hammered and vilified then Kirke is up for some.

The thing is im not even defending Kirke . I just think it's totally unfair in the context of a salary cap sport and how Leeds have put a squad together where obviously there is a structure that Kirke get tons of stick when others who are obviously on more wedge just arnt getting the job done. I am at a loss to see how fans don't get that???

I listed a few. The ones of the top of my head(as it happend on my way to work on the train) I'm sure there are more.


But again I'm not defending Kirke just asking for fairness! I remember when there was a point to Ali? burrow? Senior?

If people wanna bag Kirke fair do's but others take up much bigger parts of the cap which holds the team back more.

Bag those blokes first! If Kirke is a waste of space rob burrow for all his effort, Ali, cross and senior are massive black holes.

Wilko mate.
I'm sure if you read back over match-day and individual threads other players have had opinions aired about their relevant performances i know i personally have and always try to judge each player by their own merots on the park and not what they cost.
I see yer point re-singling out a "scape-goat" and fwiw it can seem that way when a few start posting the same kind of views but i'm sure the majority of the squad have had praise/criticism where it's been warranted.

All bar Cross have earned international honours. All bar Cross most certainly deserve more and absolutely earn it.


I'm not into dishing out blame but I agree in a cap sport value is important. How much per drive do you think Kirfke gets compared to, say, someone like SIngleton?

I repeat, he's been one of most experienced forwards in recent weeks. He's not some young kid.

Blamed for what? For 4 carries a game on two occassions? Stop being so emotive and analyse his displays objectively.

Hammered and villified? I believe all of had the same fair share of criticism that Kirke gets. However out of form they may be none show such a lack of heart as Kirke.

You appear to be the one not getting it. I asked you before, why do you think Kirke, 6 years entrenched in the 1st team, offers more "salary cap value" than Ambler or SIngleton? Our point is the same, you need someone young cheap and hungry to fill your squad. Kirke is none of those and does nothing that a young, ambitious and perhaps event talentless player from our Academy couldn't do.

Burrow was MOM in our win at Hull. He was instrumental in our win against the Bulls and had a fine game against the Reds.

If you want to start complaining about cap value compared to contribution I trust I can count on your support the next time I question Buderus's value to the squad?

I can't tell you what you believe, but I would suggest you're not being objective if you think those named (with the possible exception of Senior) have come in for the same level of consistent criticism, despite offering an equally consistent level of poor performance.

You really think those named have constantly performed at the same low level as Kirke?

Really?

That's not what I said though, is it?

I said they have been performing at a consistently low standard. I made no comparison either implied or explicit to Kirke other than in terms of the amount of stick those performances have attracted.

Lauitiiti in particular has been poor this year IMO (reminiscent of his last year at the Warriors where he looked unfit and disinterested), yet seems to be a sacred cow when it comes to criticism.

If anyone can show me a post where I, or any other poster, says we lost X game because of Ian Kirke's display Wilko may have a point

What Wilko appears to be saying is we cannot discuss Kirke's displays unless we discuss every other player's displays. Well, that is what what the forum is for. Senior has been roundly criticised for his form this year. I've added little to those discussions because I can't offer any argument against them.

Buirrow has had some stick. I've taken part in those discussions and I've often disagreed.

If Wilko believes other players deserve criticism then by all means criticise them but if the best defence he can offer to any criticism of Kirke is "it's not fair, why don't you pick on someone else" and "well, he's cheap" (when in reality there are cheaper better alternatives available and none of us know what he's on) then, frankly, it's a bit of a tepid counterpoint.

So criticise him. Posters then will agree or disagree. Why does that make criticism of Kirke any less justified?

To be fair Andy many werre saying Ali should'nt of been retained for this year as he was injury prone and past it and he certainly has'nt avoided his critics.

Again with the words in my mouth.

I know you're probably at a loose end and looking for an argument to fill your afternoon, but I have no comments to make on the accuracy or otherwise of the criticism Kirke has received on here - in much the same way as your earlier post set out your attitude to the criticism of Senior.

All I am saying is that other equally senior members of the playing squad have also performed at a level below what I would consider acceptable in 2011, without attracting anything like the same frequency or depth of criticism.

Why? Who knows - maybe some people have agendas they think they need to justify?

And where have those critics of his retention been when it comes to analysing his 2011 performances? Too busy sharpening their axes to aim at other, easier targets?

You'd have to ask them mate.
He's been far from his best imo but i don't think he's been awful either and certainly others like Kirke and Senior have been greater disappointments imo.
Other posters have also highlighted their thoughts on Burrow ,Webb ,Cross and Watkins etc etc so it's not as though people are targeting those perceived as easier to criticise.
Also kirke has been credited when it's been warranted aswell which shows a balanced view does it not?

So, to be clear, you agree that analysis of other player's displays, adds little or no value to any criticism or Kirke?

I wonder how much of the board you read because there's few players I can think of that haven't been criticised this year, some justly, others not so in my opinion.

If Kirke receives a greater frequency or depth of criticism then, perhaps it's warranted.

Of course, if it isn't I'd be interested to hear why. So far all I've heard is "he's cheap" and "other players are rubbish too". Hardly overwhelming rebuttal.

Oh and now we have the rather trite, "it's just an agenda". If you can't forumlate a counter argument we can always trot that one out. Of course, they would be completely missing the two games where Kirke has played well this year and received praise from me.