I thought all your family were into cake?

Quote ="tvoc"Let the battle continue: www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/cr ... 36852.html Even Maggie knew not to tangle with the thin blue line.'" But todays' plod, particularly the Met are a accident prone bunch with a succession of dogy senior officers/commissioners. So if they insist on playing politics rather than policing they could be out of their depth their too!

Quote ="tvoc"Let the battle continue: www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/cr ... 36852.html Even Maggie knew not to tangle with the thin blue line.'" But todays' plod, particularly the Met are a accident prone bunch with a succession of dogy senior officers/commissioners. So if they insist on playing politics rather than policing they could be out of their depth their too!

Fully agree with this and your previous well argued points BillyR

Prime Minister Cameron is enlisting the advice of Bill Bratton. Labour have already been there and done that and it was Jack Straw the coined the phrase associated with Bratton in this country.

IIRC he was given an increased budget, a notable increase in visable police numbers, an adoption of zero tolerance tactics and the incarceration of large numbers of criminals, some for fairly petty crimes.

Absolutely none of the above are likely to carry much favour with this liberal leaning government in austerity Britain (or with the current court system) and where exactly is Ken Clarke (justice minister) with his don't lock 'em up, rehabilitation agenda? Or has he gone to ground never to return after his 'serious rape' remarks.

It wasn't so long ago that legislation was being tightened up on the use of CCTV in our city centres and now it's proving it's absolute worth in assisting the police to arrest the looters and rioters rampaging through those same shopping precints.

The messages coming out of government appear to be either contradictory, confused or incompetent or perhaps a combination of all three.

As you probably already know, the extra 10000 bodies on the street came from a combination of cancelling everyone's leave and of borrowing officers from other forces and transporting them in to London, neither of which are long term options, nor cheap options.

Presumably when you book your holidays at work you get to take them on the appointed date and don't have your boss on the phone telling you to cancel them and he can't tell you when you can take them again ?

As for the budgets, if you are convinced that a 20% budget cut can be made without affecting any front line service then congratulations, you've swallowed the potion and you are now a believer, you'll probably find that all but one county police chief constable disagrees with you though, on the other hand they could probably make the total saving just by driving a Mondeo couldn't they, in fact hang on, why does a chief constable need a car anyway...

You seem surprised but when the need arises it has always been the case - so why the big fuss now and why the delay in deployment?




I run my own business so I usually fit in after everyone else and am happy to accept this. However when I was an employee I accepted the terms of the appointment and didn’t complain afterwards.. When joining the police (or military) you accept these terms as part of the package, like they accept an excellent sickness and pension scheme and early retirement, so no more grumbles on this score please.




By now even you should have accepted that the proposed 20% budget cuts are spread over 4/5 years. As I previously said any business person with the faintest knowledge of running a budget will know that savings can almost always be made. The private sector is continually looking for savings. The larger the organization the more the potential savings.

For public services that have had an extended period of over a decade of increased budgets and manpower are now without doubt able to increase efficiency and make substantial savings. So the first cut of 8% planned for 2012/13 is entirely possible. Do you really believe that an 8% saving to such a huge budget is not possible without effecting front line policing bearing in mind that only 12% of officers are on front line duties at any one time?

To ensure that there is no reduction of officers on front line duty (indeed we should try to increase numbers) a full review of police practices needs undertaking as the problem runs deeper.

The Met has had an obsession with a softer form of neighbourhood policing which some well regarded former senior officers say helps to explain why Britain’s biggest police force seemed unable to muster sufficient numbers of riot control officers at short notice. The Met used to pride itself on its ability to bring in 3000-6000 officers into central London at very short notice.

Importantly all these officers received at least basic training in riot control. But the introduction of neighbourhood policing meant that a large proportion of this standby element comprised community support officers who had little or no riot training and no legal powers of arrest. Around 2007 the standby mechanism was quietly abandoned because it was perceived as draining resources from neighbourhood policing.

This same emphasis on neighbourhood policy also contributed to its failure to tackle the growth in “complex criminal communities” So we now have had an explosion of these criminal gangs so that we now a threat to the broader safety of society. Some 170 gangs have been identified in London alone. It is time the police changed their focus.

With regard to the comments of various police chiefs – well they would say that wouldn’t they? This does not prove they are right though does it? In fact you could argue that considering these same police chiefs get so many police decisions wrong they are unlikely to get budgeting matters right either as it is outside their expertise!

With regard to cars. Whats wrong with a Ford? And why should the police drive around in top of the range BMW’s with leather seats?

It would be interesting to break down the police budget:

eg: Cost & numbers of officers actually on duty each day. Costs to show overtime and vehicle costs.

Front line duties uniform
Front line duties CID
Community/Neighbourhood duties
Support duties
Office duties
Traffic duties
Off sick & gardening leave
On holiday
Civil staff
Cost of properties and maintenance.
Vehicle costs and maintenance for each section

As part of the post mortem on this serious public criminal disorder we need a root and branch review of current policing methods and priorities and not just a discussion on proposed budget cuts

Well thats you and David Cameron who seem to think that you can easily cut 20% from a budget and yet actually increase services (as he is calling for today), I wish him well for it could be his Waterloo.

William Bratton is of the opinion that "arrests won't solve the issue" and part (if not all) of his solution is more of what you may call "softer policing", specifically the recruitment of a more ethnically/racially balanced police force to interact with local communities better.

How he will do this with no budget and a freeze on recruitment these past two years is unknown, Mr Cameron has already made it abundantly clear that there is to be no backtracking on the budget.

Yes, I suppose they would, if I want an opinion on policing I'd probably ask a chief constable rather than a career politician, but thats just stupid me.

So pretty much the same way Sir Norman and the West Yorkshire plod have been going in recent years then? Interesting that London, Birmingham and Manchester all saw widespread civil unrest, yet Leeds (where community policing has been given a major push, particularly in areas with a high ethnic minority population) seemed to escape relatively unscathed.

More Specials ?

Which section of society is "socially deprived" and what does that mean anyway?

My view is that what happened was down to spontaneous outbursts of pure criminality/greed. Those sections of society you generalise include members of the same communities that rallied against and suffered at the hands of the rioters.

The young Islamic boys killed defending their mosque probably suffered the same social deprivation as the rioters.

Not just me and the PM. Most business people would accept 20% over 4/5 years is quite reasonable particularly for a public service that has had a a long run of getting what they want.

We have just had an example of what softer policing can achieve. It has allowed 170 criminal gangs to flourish in London alone. I am sure this wake up call for the Met will bring about a much needed refocus on priorities.



The new government has only been in power for 18 mths and the proposed police budget cuts start in 2012/13

But whose opinion do you ask when the police senior officers get things so badly wrong?

Yes, the focus is to bring in a "specialist" who is making it quite clear what his solution is - a type of policing which integrates with the local ethnic mix and not one that goes around cracking heads, this will of course mean recruiting more officers of the correct ethnicity which in itself is always controversial, moreso if extra funding and fast tracking is made available for these (as it will have to be) - that is of course if David Cameron is serious about applying the LA and New York solutions to gang crime and not just using Bratton as a posturing platform.

I couldn't care less who enforced the initial police freeze on recruitment, party political love-ins aren't my bag, the era of Red vs Blue politics are long gone with barely enough room to slip a rizla paper between the three parties.

You ask them for the facts and you listen to their explanations and assess their options and consider whether you tied their hands some years ago - you certainly don't jump in with both feet two days after the event and start a "It was all their fault" campaign as some MP's are happy to do.

It was only a few short months ago that the Met were under criticism for their procedure known as "kettling" when violent disorder was seen on the streets, pressure from MPs which brought a promise not to use that procedure again - there is nowhere else to go when your hands are tied in that way.

I think you will find the "specialist" will have some other tougher ideas as well.

I don't think we have a police force that goes round cracking heads, but already we are hearing that there is a need for the Met to re-focus which is what I have been saying. If the ethnic balance of officers in the Met (and elswhere) is still wrong after so much history then this is just another example of the need for a change in direction for our biggest police force.




If this were really so then we would be hearing from you much more balanced political opinions than we do.

Look, as I have stated several times, I think the police have a very difficult job to do and by and large the public (including myself) are right behind them. I saw nothing wrong with "kettling" as a means of protecting the public. I agree too much is done on the hoof without calm thought.

MP's do have a mandate to express opinions which often represent their constituents so long as it doesn't undermine the police.

Having said all that, we all did see a cock up by the police and the acting commissioner has had the decency to admit they got it wrong for the first few days.

The public also have the right to point out serious errors when and where they occur. The police lost control of the streets where murder, theft and mayhem occured. We have to urgently make sure this cannot happen again and the police have to prove to the public that they will never again just stand by and watch serious, violent criminal behaviour happening on this scale for so long.

The criminal gangs are now a real serious problem and current police methods to stop them has failed.

Tackling the reasons for the behaviour will take much, much more time as we have deep seated, long standing social problems to address.

Im not sure why people think that the 'social deprivation' and 'pure criminality/greed' argument are mutually exclusive.

My personal theory is that people choose to be part of a society, they choose to adhere (in the most part) to its rules and its norms. Conversely they sometimes choose not to. In this case, people chose not to. Yes what they did was pure criminality, there was no protest in it, and yes it was greed, you dont make a point by stealing high-end electrical goods and trainers other than you like high-end electrical goods and trainers, but the question we should be asking is why now? why have these people (and lets not pretend it is all a criminal underclass, it wasnt, it was a wide range of people from diverse backgrounds) now chosen, at this point, not to adhere to societies rules and norms?

As for 'who' is socially deprived? Huge sections of society are. Not just the poor 'chavs' on sink estates, but many young people from middle class families, families David Cameron would describe as good, hard working, honest, parents. Good role models and all that jazz.

The reality is, for a lot of young people, they simply dont have the opportunities to follow their role models. The average house price is a ridiculous multiple of the average wage, especially for a young person. The cost of a university education now is 6 times what my dad paid for his first house in the mid-80's, and kids and young people cant go in to a trade or into industry because the jobs and apprenticeships simply arent there. It is very very difficult, and only getting harder and harder for kids to become young adults and start to take, and contribute to this society. It is exceptional these days for a kid to leave school, get a career, get a good wage, be able to afford a house, a car and a decent standard of living. The police force who do and have treated kids who protest and kids in general with a profound lack of respect, authority figures who themselves have far from clean faces, Police officers taking bribes, the media offering them, MP's taking what they can in expenses (and other stuff) big business which has economically raped about 3 different generations. These are people being told that they will need to pay of billions to keep banks afloat so other people dont lose their savings, when they spend their lives living in their overdraft from paycheque to paycheque or dole cheque to dole cheque wishing they had savings to lose.

Im not saying what happened was right or trying to mitigate it, im just saying im not surprised people said f@ck it, by hook or by crook im going to take what I want, everyone else is doing it, and Im also saying that if we dont address these fundamental problems then I wont be surprised when it happens again and again.

Utter rubbish. Which businesses have cut by 20% whilst increasing the service they provide?

If it's that simple then how about you detail where these cuts can be made which won't affect front-line policing?

Thats not what he's telling the press to date, Camerons first response was to make an appointment with the man who is recognised as having eased (not cured) the gang problems in LA and New York and in doing so he lets rip with a lot of rhetoric about getting tough, about being old enough to face the consequences etc etc - and the first thing that his advisor starts telling the press is that you can't arrest your way out of the gang culture and you have to work with those kids not against them.

Someone is not singing off the same hymn sheet and if Cameron truly is going to pay attention to this guy then he needs to ease off the tough talk and wait and see what he has to say, there are huge swathes of voters who are now looking for long prison sentences and council house evictions and when they don't happen they are going to be looking at David and wondering why he's stopped talking tough.




I don't keep score, I simply comment where I see fit, as someone who was raised under the influence of Wilson and Heath I view all politicians today as mere shadows of the men they used to be to the extent where I don't even care about which colour flag my own MP sails under as long as he proves that he works for me, which the current incumbent did.

:2rel4nwo

I'm not a pyschologist, but I'll give you my 2 penceworth. The same question was posed by a reporter to one of the rioters/looters and the short answer was...."because we can!" There was a mob mentality and possibly for the first time in their lives they had a feeling of power. The initial slow response from the Authorities merely added to their ego's and sense of invulnerability.
Comment was made by those unfortunate people trapped inside their businesses, about the sheer maliciousness of the rioters as they mocked their fear prior to smashing their way in. The people who arrived later were simply opportunists who in many cases were arrested for being in the wrong place at the wrong time.

:2rel4nwo

To me, UK social deprivation was back in the day 50/70 years ago, with people sleeping several to a bed.....outside toilets...poor diet....high infant mortality.....ricketts, consumption etc etc. I'd be interested to hear how a section of society which has had free education.....free health care.....free housing.....free benefits etc can be described as deprived.

:2rel4nwo

Where is written in stone, that the world in which we live will keep you in the manner you would like to become accustomed to? No jobs in your home town? As Norman Tebbitt pointed out years ago, "get on yer bike!" Move to any Country in the World, and the chances are you will hear some of the accents from the UK. I've worked away from home since I was 17, as have thousands of others. Sitting whinging about life in the hometown whilst signing on was not an acceptable option.

Housing is expensive and I do have a lot of sympathy for any first time buyer, but again, it is not a given that a nice 4 bed detached is yours by right.
Respect is a much abused word. Much like racist nowadays. If you want me to have a positive view about you, then it will be because I can see something positive in you, not simply because you're a teenager.

Authority figures who rip off the system? And who here, if he was one of those bankers would refuse that million pound bonus? Bent Coppers? West Midlands Serious Crime Squad springs to mind. Dodgy Politicians? I don't think I really need to say anything. It's all part of life's rich tapestry, so you had better get used to it!



So, how about saying it was wrong?

I doubt very much that the scrotes who attacked the 68 year old pensioner were thinking about the unfairness of million pound bonus's as they battered him into unconsciousness and eventual death.
The Bank Rate didn't provide the motivation to the howling mob who attempted to storm into a house in Notting Hill, whilst its owner desperately tried to keep them out and away from his wife and children.

These people are the dregs of our Society. Pure and simple. My sympathies lie with their victims and not with them.

Call Me Dave talked (amongst other things) of a society that offers reward for no effort.

I wonder if that extends to inherited wealth?

I assume Mr Cameron reserves the same disgust and contempt for those members of the Bullingdon Club who trash restaurants and pubs and commit anti-social behaviour?