We were really struggling without a proper hooker even in those three final games we won. The middle was really struggling but we came up with some great plays at crucial times. Wigan also paid for not having any big metre making props to bust us down the middle in that 2nd half. A Chris Hill or Alex Walmsley (whose ankle was nowhere near fit for the playoff semi) could've finished us off.

And when titles and a treble are on the line you can find that bit extra to cling on in defence to send some legendary teammates off in the best way....can you do that week in week out when it's Round 6 away to Cas or Round 13 away to Warrington with final league placings still well away.

Absolutely. The team deserve huge Credit for the way they dug in and showed champion mentality to turn it around when all seemed lost.

My main point is the warning signs were there regards the hooking role in particular despite the success we had.

And we were without many players for that period. Including Burrow. That's why we werent the same team.

We were very good rotating Burrow and Aiton, then Aiton got injured and we carried on being good, then Burrow got injured and we were crap, then Burrow came back and we beat the top 3 teams in succession.

Somehow this has been rewritten as a journeyman like Aiton being some kind of world beater and a 'proper hooker' being the missing piece of the puzzle when its clearly never been the case.

We have shown for nigh on 15 years we can win with Burrow, when we have gone with a 'proper hooker' the only time it has been successful is when we have gotten a very very good one. Thats why Millard didnt really work, its why we didnt really miss Aiton, its why Falloon was a dud. Its why Diskin did work, its why Buderus did work, and why Segeyaro has worked. The link here isnt 'a proper hooker' its that they are very very good players.

That is the problem, not Burrow holding the team back, but the fact we lost an outstanding player in Sinfield and didnt replace him, and then saw McGuire barely play. We go with Thurston and Cronk in the halves and nobody is worrying that we dont have 'a proper hooker'.

OK then, we need a very very good hooker Smokey... glad we all agree, lets leave it at that

Yeah, apart from winning a challenge cup by a record score, beating the team who finished 2nd twice, the teams who finished 3rd, 4th and 2nd in successive weeks and beating Hull we really struggled.

Apart from the treble who knows how good we could have been if only we had Papua New Guinea's 3rd best hooker.

We have a very very good one now. And a more than capable back up/top quality impact.

If he doesn't get poached sometime in the coming weeks, yes i agree.

We did struggle in those last three games, just because you win a game doesn't mean you didn't struggle or play well.

Oh and Burrow didn't even get on until 50 mins in the cup final when we were already about 5 scores clear and didn't get on until the second half vs Wigan in the Super 8's and as mentioned he wasn't at hooker for the Hull game either so you can hardly point to them.

We beat the best other three teams in the league. In succession. As well as beating the 2nd best team again. At the business end of the season. Yet we were struggling, not playing well. Crying out for PNG's 3rd best hooker to replace a player with 7 grand finals, 2 challenge cups, 3 WCC, 3 LLS, and 2 Harry Sunderland awards.

I mean its not like 5 weeks earlier Aiton had started a game against Wigan, you know when we were super duper unbeatable, before we were struggling, before we werent playing well, before we had to suffer Burrow at hooker.

Do you remember what the score was in that game? Surely we must have beaten them by 30-40 points considering how well we were playing and we had Aiton to be a proper hooker for us? and considering we could beat Wigan twice when we were struggling and not playing well, surely we walked that game?

I imagine the reason it's not announced yet is because we haven't secured safety yet, he obviously won't stay if we were in the Championship.

If you want to base it solely on the final result then so be it. Can clearly see through that you issue isn't about Burrow at all it's just harping back to your moan last year about not liking Aiton.

If Burrow had been our starting hooker last year and no Aiton then we wouldn't have been 6 points clear heading into Wembley IMO and then the end of the season looks very different. If you want results, Aiton was the starting hooker when we won 10 of our opening 11 to get away from the pack, he remained starting hooker to help get us to 1st spot after 23 Rounds, he was starting hooker in e previous cup matches before Wembley. He might not have been available for the end of the season but he was definitely hugely responsible for getting us there over the course of the year.

You are right, Aiton was the hooker when we lost to Warrington, when we lost to Warrington again, when we lost to Widnes, when we drew with Huddersfield, When we lost to Wigan, When we lost to Wigan again, When we lost to Cas.

Burrow, playing for the team that was struggling, not playing well, beat Wigan, beat Wigan again, beat Huddersfield, and beat St Helens.

You know what, 7 grand finals, 2 challenge cups, 3 LLS, 3 WCC, and 2 Harry Sunderland trophies and yeah, im pretty comfortable basing it on final results. You and Paul Aiton with your 1 challenge cup (as a back up to guess who?) can judge it on something else if you want.

Lets get one thing right, Aiton is a decent hooker but not top bracket and i don't think many would argue he was anymore than that. The point is that he is a hooker who can defend well in the middle and does the fundamentals of hooking naturally which is what we lack when relying on Burrow for long periods. Is it also any coincidence players like Watkins who are not having to put in as big a defensive shifts as when hiding Burrow seem to look far more potent and energetic with ball in hand?

Even if we manage to secure Segeyaro im with others who would still like to see a deputy who is capable of stepping straight into his shoes if he gets an injury and keep Burrow solely for the impact role which still does so well and can continue being a match winner in.

100% right mate! Also add in some kind of marketing campaign; T-shirts, shirts, season tickets, lunch box, pots n pans?

Gary seldom misses a chance to sell our club and so he should.

Burrow started the Widnes away game actually and again he didn't even get off the bench until the 2nd half in the Wigan Super 8's game when we were already 20-4 so I don't know why you're clinging onto that one.

The thing is no one is staying Burrow starting there can't work on occasion/s. But doing it for 3 weeks is much different to doing it for 30 weeks. And it's not about who is the better player individually, it's about who add the better balance to the team. Doesn't leave centres having to defend like 2nd rowers, doesn't have your middle guys having to make up the 30/40 tackles your hooker would make, has better passing and organising from dummy half so that your props can get you further downfield and give your HB's crisper ball.

I find it very similar to the Wayne Rooney debate for England. For me he is the big problem for that team. Some will defend him saying he was one of our better players on Sunday because he picked up the ball a lot and did a lot of passing.....however it completely messed up the balance of the side. His insistence to drop so deep made Kane struggle as he was left isolated, the defence wasn't having to worry about the man-in-the-hole number 10 position so impacts on the wingers and he's sat on top of your other central midfielders taking their job off them. His performance might have looked good to some if judging solely on what he did, but for the negative issues he caused his teammates then it was the main problem.

RL like football is a TEAM sport, picking a team should be about balance, everyone has their role to fulfill in defence and attack, it shouldn't be the case where some are hampered by doing the workload of others.

Because it simply isnt true. To state it again, We beat everyone, at the business end of the season, with Burrow at hooker. We have managed to do so, many many times for over a decade.

The idea that our struggles this year, and our small struggles last year, are down to not having a 'proper hooker' simply arent born out by the facts. It has been proven, time and time and time and time again that we can and do win with Burrow at hooker, it has been proven with Millard, with Falloon, and
yes with Aiton, that swapping out Burrow for a 'proper hooker' doesnt result in victory.

I dont think Watkins looked any better outside Fallon, no more energetic, nor more potent, less if anything.

What Segeyaro has proven is that top bracket players will make us play better. But we arent going to get another top bracket hooker. We will get a Falloon, a Millard, or at best an Aiton, players worse that Burrow.

Because it is your argument, your point that we need a 'proper hooker' and that Aitons position as a 'proper hooker' made us play soooooo much better. Its simply not true.

But Aiton, and most 'proper hookers' dont make that difference. We know this for a fact. Burrow has been doing what Burrow does, whatever number is on his back, for 15 wildly successful years.

England havent won 7 of the last 12 tournaments they played in with Rooney doing what Rooney does. If they had, and people will still arguing about his position people would think they were mental.

What it is closer to is Barcelona playing Messi as a false 9

and people still arguing about whether you can win without a proper number 9.

No we haven't because Burrow hasn't been playing at hooker for a decade. Most of the trophy haul you listed above is misleading in this argument because they came from playing in the halves. He started games at hooker in 2012 but we brought in Lunt who played an important role. 2013 we pretty much went with Burrow alone after McShane wasn't favoured and it was our only trophyless season under McDermott prior to this year. Burrow was the starter in 2014 with Aiton on the bench and we finish 6th in the table, Aiton was the starter in 2015 and Burrow on the bench and we finish 1st in the table.

Falloon was an absolute dud, goodness knows how he ever got a gig in the NRL but he offered us nothing. He wasn't good enough for the Championship, Aiton was miles better, so the fact he changed nothing is of no surprise at all.

Watkins looked far better first half of last year, he was ripping it up. No coincidence off the back of the quick plays, neat dummy half work and link up between Aiton and his forwards in second phase ball with offloads from the like of Cuthbertson (another whos game has fallen away since then surprise surprise) giving him space and early ball. So Watkins then became a tackling machine again for the last few weeks when we forced to go back to Burrow. Not his fault, but annoying having your rolls royce attacking weapon having to do donkey work to hide others imo.

Again, Burrow is a great player and like Printer said, one you wouldn't mind having to cover for the odd game here or there. But, for the benefit of the TEAM moving forward we need... yes you've guessed it, 'a proper hooker' as often as possible

Put whatever number you want on his back, Burrow is playing how Burrow plays. He isnt a different player because of the number on his back, same as Sinfield isnt turning in to Paul Gallen when he lined up at loose instead of in the halves. Even then he won a Harry Sunderland award as an impact hooker.

Players are players, not a list of skills that fit a certain position. Burrow was never more a proper half than he was a proper hooker. He was Rob Burrow.

That is a big part of the problem.

That he might be, but he wasn't going into dummy half nearly all game when Matt Diskin was here. Defenders weren't having to shuffle in one because we had to defend two halves on one side. So yes Burrow might still play like Burrow, but our centres weren't having to do extra amounts of tackles, our props weren't missing a 40 tackle a game hooker defending next to them so you're again completely missing the point about the balance of the team. Other people's games have to change if he plays there, and not for the better.

Segeyaro might start 28/29 games next year and then get injured and Burrow might do the exact same thing as 2015 and come in and start the last few and we win a GF.....but if we have Burrow starting hooker week in week out for 30 odd weeks it won't lead to success. You point to a 3 game cameo to say it works but me and others are on about him playing there every week throughout a year and their's no evidence to support that working.

Falloon had a better NRL career than Aiton. The idea, based on half of this seasona and half of last that Aiton was somehow on a different level to Falloon is nonsense.

A proper like Falloon? a proper hooker like Millard?

Watkins looked better first half of last year because he was playing outside two form halves and a dominant pack. Aiton was, and is, an average hooker playing in an outstanding side. Put Falloon in that side and he looks great. Hell, we apparently didnt need a hooker at all behind that pack and with those halves.

This is no different to the last 15 years where we have been wildly successful with McGuire as a stand off who wasnt really a stand off, just a back up player, Burrow a Half who wasnt a proper half and a hooker who wasnt a proper hooker and Sinfield as a loose who wasnt big enough and a half that wasnt fast enough. Its crazy that we managed to beat all these teams with proper hookers and proper halves. People get locked in their heads that each position has a certain set of skills and players need those skills to play in those positions when that isnt how the game works at all.

Broken down and put very simply, an below average player can make 30 tackles a game and get to dummy half. An average player can even do it well. Nobody in RL can do what Rob Burrow does. A team can comfortably cover 30 tackles a game, they can send anyone to dummy half, nobody in RL could have scored the try Burrow did to break open the 2011 grand final.

Is it? its been pretty successful up to now.

Have you read anything i have put the last few pages?