My point was made perfectly clear as you will be well aware assuming you read my comments: that the current Typhoon was outclassed and had a history of manufacturing problems which caused delays in delivery and further technical and reliability problems which limited its effectiveness and meant it was somthing of a "lemon"

Your point seemed to be it was that best thing since sliced bread and stated that it would be the "backbone of the present and future RAF" Well scrfapped after only 3 years in non combat service is hardly backbone for the future.

The RAF are trying to sell off as much of their commitment as they can for the latest Tranche of Typhoons because although much improved they have lost the confidence of the service.

With regard to alternatives despite what is given out to the media if we really wanted to buy the Raptor it would happen. We are not some Middle East state. Some of our pilots have road tested them!

This apparent 'lemon' of yours is currently equipping the German, Austrian, Spanish, Italian and Saudi air forces as well as our own. It appears you must know something that they collectively and individually don't. It won't reach the numbers first envisaged in service over here but there is nothing unusual in that as these huge military projects invariably come in late and massively over-budget and there's a limit as to what can be afforded at any given time, not forgetting the evolving nature of the threats it has to counter-act which can change relatively quickly by comparison.

The Saudi order was placed a few years ago and at least ensures the RAF will eventually receive it's Tranche 3 aircraft. An export success for the beleaguered economy? The irony being that at this rate the Saudi Air Force will probably end up with more Typhoons (Tornados and Hawks) than the RAF.

The F22 has been and will only be produced in bare minimal (by US standards) quantities (a production run of 187 airframes in total - considering the original requirement was envisaged in the region of 750) and I repeat there isn't now and I doubt ever will be (given the low numbers and the huge cost) an export version not even in a 'B' spec configuration. The focus is very much on the F35 which, unlike the Raptor, was always developed with export versions and customers in mind.

RAF pilots have flown many different US types over the years (and vice-versa) that never formed any part of the RAF's inventory (including the F117 and they were even known to publically display said type in this country while doing so on occassions) so the comment implies nothing as far as I can tell.

Odd that you mention the UK not being a Middle East state as if being one would prevent the US supplying military kit especially as one such state is the USA's biggest military customer since the 2nd World War in terms of both military sales and military aid.

Because the other governments that co-funded the Typhoon/Eurofighter have been obliged politically to buy it does not in any way make the aircraft worthy.

The fact that you are avoiding is that the Typhoon is being ditched by The RAF after only 3 years in non combat service at a huge cost. If this fact together with its troublesome history does not qualify for the term "lemon" then I don't know what does. You think there is "nothing unusual in this" but I think that this is most unusual.

This plane was a problem from the start with too much political interference from the governments involved. Its long delays and technical problems and meant it is not fit for purpose and the RAF have know this for some time. The only reason it was not ditched years ago was political.

The RAF have already sold some of their Tranche 3 aircraft and would like to sell more. I suspect all of them. There is no guarantee that these latest models with a better spec. will be any more reliable than those now to be scapped. There is also some doubt that we will need this type of aircraft for much longer.

The UK is the leading ally of the US. With our high military commitment to NATO and other world trouble spots we would have access the their best products if the need arose. Our commitment over the years to the Eurofighter meant the US only has been producing the bare minimum of F22s because we were not in the market. So not odd at all.

Anyone got a ruler?

I like Belugas.



Belugas are funny.

Thats like the designer was in a rush one morning and as he left the house he accidently picked up some drawings of airplanes that his five year old had been doing the night before, arriving at work he thrust them into the arms of the production director and just said "here, thats the new transporter, make it"

And they all sat around in the canteen holding the drawings up to the light and saying "they're fooking mad these designers aren't they"...


You can see in that photo the designer who's come in on his day off, stood there thinking, "THATS NOT WHAT I DREW..."

He's also thinking "Shit, does that mean we've made at least four of these buggers ?"

Happy New Year BB

Austria and Saudi Arabia are not part of any consortium involved with the project, they are genuine bona-fide export customers.



Where have you seen reported that the Typhoon is being ditched by the RAF?

The RAF are equipping with the latest spec jets and selling some of the lesser spec jets (that's selling, not ditching or scrapping.) Many of the Saudi order will be supplied direct from BAE just as happened in the past with Tornado and Hawk aircraft.



Aircraft numbers are being reduced (it's always happened, it always will) it's not neccessarily anymore a reflection on this type than cuts to the Tornado programme, Harrier programme or the F22 programme have been in the past.

These things happen when you procure military equipment over decades where as the threats evolve so does the kit needed to combat them. That doesn't alleviate the need to plan for the future as best you can with the information available at the time though.



What was odd is that you mentioned the USA in relation to arms sales to the Middle East as if it's something they wouldn't countenance when their biggest military customer since the end of the second world war is in fact a Middle East state and it's not the only one either.

With regards the F22:

1) The USA have the bare minimum for their own requirements.
2) US Congress have determined there will not be any F22's sold for export.
3) There will be no F22's in production after this year.
4) The cost of re-opening production once it ceases will be prohibitive.
5) The cost per airframe to the RAF would also be prohibitive.
6) The cost of training and integration is unplanned and would be prohibitive.
7) The UK government is already committed to the F35 as a versatile weapons platform able to equip across the three services as required.

In the current economic climate it's not going to happen either now or at any time for the forseeable future, to suggest otherwise is somewhat bizarre.

The Typhoon is and will increasingly provide the backbone of the RAF's fast jet, multirole capability in the short to medium term. If it doesn't ...... nothing else will and sadly with the present government that's also a possibility as it's bound to be a bit cheaper.

Will someone please get in touch with the modern day 'Bomber' Harris and get him to re-name the Eurofighter to the Wilf Rosenberg for fooks sake or at can we have a base called RAF Wilf Rosenberg or summat.

If you say so! Time will tell

Good idea as he was the "flying winger"

Quote ="Fred_Pickup"As someone who had Wilf as a sports master for a short time, I find these allegations quite astonishing. He was a really nice guy. www.myshtetl.co.za/media/news/jo ... %3B-report'" "But wot 'appens if he ain't bent, Mr Bridger ...." "Camp Freddie, ever-er-ree one is bent ..."

Quote ="Fred_Pickup"As someone who had Wilf as a sports master for a short time, I find these allegations quite astonishing. He was a really nice guy. www.myshtetl.co.za/media/news/jo ... %3B-report'" "But wot 'appens if he ain't bent, Mr Bridger ...." "Camp Freddie, ever-er-ree one is bent ..."

The upshot of it is, have we established if Wilf is a fully paid-up member of MOSSAD or not ?

Possibly the best thread that I've ever read on this board. Even better than the old Hels Bells discussions about Franny's thighs.....Remember them?

And I came here looking for news of the Rhinos.......

If I remember the 'Franny jock strap' threads correctly they were more Kazzy then Hels Bells.



Unlikely to find it on a thread about Wilf Rosenberg.

As ever your powers of recall are exemplary.
I thought that the way you & JC were boring on that the thread should have been about flying whingers.

I was done with the thread way before christmas (edit: end of October) but Juan got a second wind.

I saw the two great tries by Wilf in the championship semi against saints in 1961

Maybe but you wouldn't let it lie.

Just keeping you on your toes for the new season!

Yes me too. Derek Hallas played a big part in many of Wilf's tries. Much underated centre.

he certainly did

I seem to remember he played a season with Paramatta maybe with Fred Pickup

yes he went to Parramatta ,dont know who went first though .I think Fred I think maybe Derek went back to Keighley from Leeds .I wonder if 3 x leeds men played for Parra at the same time Fred ,Derek and of course Ken Thornett