Poor William.

One day someone will care if you live or die. One day.

Hold onto that hope. Be brave. Don't take the coward's way out.

I'm rooting for you.

Jee Wizz. It seemed a perfectly good discussion on the subject before this morning.

I wonder what the commond denominator is that's made it a childish farce now.



I thought the schools were off last week, not this.

I'm a big fan of Buderus, and think he adds loads to the team, and more than Diskin does, and has done really since 2004.

Diskin should not be binned though. he has proved that he can do the business, ok so he may be on poor form, but he has the ability and attitude to pull through that and show his true ability.

In terms of the match day 17, I think Buderus staring does well, and having Diskin on the bench allows Buderus to do two good stints, when he can really make an impact, and make an impression on the game. Would he be as sharp in the last minutes of the game, if he'd been on for the 80? Its ceryainly doubtful. I trust in Bluey's judgement.

As a slight tangent, with Sinny at 6 these days, and a limited squad this week, what would people think about him starting at 13?

On people valuing GF rings highly vs Marquee signings currently doing the business, how do they rate Ian Kirke vs Eastwood?

You can not ask a sensible thing like that. That goes against all the criteria, and only highlights the hypocrisy that exists with certain posters.

Bullseye.


(Though I do also think that some posters, when comparing the Buderus apple with the Diskin orange, will bemoan the latter's lake of pips and green skin rather than recognising them as 2 different comodities).

A good point. Diskin has great workrate, and solid defence. These things often go unnoticed by less knowledgeable posters. Buderus has brutal defence and at times rips team apart around the ruck, these things are more noticeable to the untrained eye. I'd want to have elements of both on my team.

Good question but IMO it's not the same as Diskin/Buderus

Their is only 1 hooking position in the team, neither have come through the Leeds academy or given the same amount of service of Diskin, neither are planning on leaving next year (I think) so it's hard to compare the two scenarios.

IMO Eastwood is better than Kirke and Buderus is better than Diskin.

I would rather keep Diskin over Buderus for other reasons, I'm not sure anyone has said Diskin is a better player than Buderus if that's what this debate is about.

I think it's more about the hypocrisy that exists in certani posters. Thanks for confirming and highlighting it further.

Leicesters question was more, why does GF rings apply to certain players and not to others.

And by the way there is 2 hooking positions not one, as I think the whole idea of having both Diskin and Buderus is so that we can play the two hooker game.

And further I think the argument of posters like Leicester and PA, is that we are perfectly fine playing the two hooker game and therefore should have both.

Leicesters question was why does GF rings apply to certain players and not to others.

I'm not sure who you are levelling the hypocrisy at and what I have highlighted?

When I said 1 hooking position I meant the traditional 1 hooker at a time on the field, I have no problem with using 2 hookers, it's a system that has brought plenty of success to other clubs during the SL era.

Its not about who's better, merely that people judge some people with some criteria and some with another. The way I see it personally is that Kirke doesn't get into the first choice 17, Diskin does.

Their salaries probably reflect this.

Gotcha pretty much sums it up for me

I can see the point being made re Kirke & Eastwood and its not without validity.

Digressing slightly, my own view of Kirke is that he's cheap and does 'some work' allowing his more able team mates a bit of a breather in order that they're more effective in their contributions. When injury free and in a big game I wouldn't expect him to make the 17 - though he often does.

That's part of how I believe Diskin is utilised - his presence enables Buderus to operate with greater intensity - but Diskin's workrate (even bearing in mind the difference in positions) and effectiveness are far greater relative to Kirke's.

I'm going to digress again.

When I think of teams playing with 2 hookers I tend to think of quite contrasting hookers. Case in point Newton & Jackson at Leeds - the rugged former being around for the opening 20 before allowing on the more skilled but less robust Jackson. I suppose other examples would be Saints with James Roby or when Leeds used Rob Burrow - players whose main contribution is to run out of dummy half.

I don't necessarilly see that as being the case with Buderus & Diskin. Instead they spell each other to keep each other fresh - most particularly in the case of Buderus - and whilst they're different types of player neither are obvious 'interchange hookers'.

I'm happy with how it works though. Where I'd certainly be in the pro Diskin camp is if one were to be relied on as a week in week out 80 minute hooker in which case it would have to be Diskin.

Completely. Kirke is essentially cannon fodder to do some hard work, and be a body in the line for 20-40mins a game whilst other take a breather. Its not his fault he's the only one to stay fit all season.

Diskin is a player who has good ability and can shape a game, and put his stamp on it

You see, your arguments are much more beneficial and accurate to a discussion than at times others.

I think you sum things up well and accurate.

The major dissagreement which I have with your viewpoint and I presume others also, is that the Diskin you talk about, I don't think anything has been seen of this season to back it up. And whilst you talk about keeping fresh, do you not think the same should apply to Diskin also? if we want to get the best out of both we should surely be operating that way?

Had this been last season that whole post above would have been agreed with by the vast majority rather than a big split, that I am sure of.

I thank you for your thoughts Ginger Bob, and will amend my Will to leave you the silver candlesticks.

I think it applies far more to Buderus than Diskin.

At 28 you'd expect Diskin to be able to cope with 80 minute football week in week out, and his experience last year backs that up.

At 32 its not so likely that Buderus would be as capable at dealing with it. More specifically he hasn't had any run like that for Leeds, and you'd need to go back to 2006 to find the last time he did much more than half a season as a solo hooker for Newcastle (in 2007 he missed 12/25 rounds and 10/25 in 200icon_cool.gif. Two years and two serious injuries further on, now aged 32, I think its clear why he's regulalrly spelled and still gets rested for the odd game.

Moreover, if Buderus is significantly the superior player its difficult to see why the coach continues to spell him - unless he either thinks he isn't capable of doing regular 80 minute stints or that he can get more quality from him in short bursts, which I think the record above demonstrates.

For example, Buderus can be lauded for the intensity of his defence or for his ability to change a game late on. Its not unreasonable to assume that he would be less effective in these exploits if he hadn't had a decent breather in the previous 60/70 minutes

Just be sure to wash them first.

Again, you put it well, but I dissagree. The Buderus we see now compared to 4 years ago (when he was the best in the world) is not a massive change. Of course he is not the same, but he is still very fit and still one of the top 4 hookers in the world. If he was in the NRL still he would be playing 80 or close to 80 minutes week in week out. Why can he not do it in super league.

By contrast if you compare Matt Diskin now to what he was 4 years ago, there is a huge difference. He is far slower, both physically and mentally than he was 4 years ago.

I don't think it is a wrong statment to make that Matt Diskin at his absolute best, was still not as good as the Buderus we have today.

What we have to differentiate from here, is that just because Buderus is regarded so high by some, does not mean to say that what Diskin has offered is in anyway forgotten about. Why can we not appreciate quality we have in Buderus without it been a negative on Diskin. Or indeed I don't dissagree with your view that if it was forced on us, that Diskin would be perfectly adequate to perform the one hooker role in this competition. Where I dissagree is that you would get the same Diskin we have had for the years preceeding.

And the argument that GF winners rings should come into it, should not be a deciding factor for any player, never mind just Diskin. Any new contracts or signings, should be based on the team improving year on year to meet the increased challenges.

No, I meant precisely what I asked you. Why do you think that past performances, rather than current form, should even be considered when picking a current team. Simple enough I would have thought. The "everybody knows" is a risible defence, and belongs in the schoolyard. Once again, I invite you to put up or shut up.



Useing childish insults to pad out your argument says more about the weakness in the thought process of the poster, rather than the persons such antics are aimed at. As far as I am aware of, we are discussing the merits of Buderus and Disken THIS season. Perhaps you could also address that, and at the same time explain how the performance of any player in any season somehow reflects on me?



Show me examples of "player bashing" What we have seen is considered opinion from several posters, with reasonable points being raised on both sides. Unless you're a bit of a drama queen there's only been the snide remarks from the usual suspects when they've run out of anything meaningful to add. And if your basing your own arguments on assumptions, then the only conclusion to be reached is that you lack the intelligence to understand what has been written over the past dozen or so pages.



I'm sure you're still a very attractive woman......

Has someone hacked your account today. You're making a lot more sense than usual



Whilst I have sat firmly in the Buderus fans corner on this issue, I have tried where possible not to bag Diskin as he has been a loyal servant to the club, and is a good SL hooker, and were Buderus to leave at the end of the season I wouldn't worry.

I'm not sure that he'd get another contract in the NRL doing 80mins each week.

And still you are incapable of forming your own opinion, are you scared you might upset someone?

Its a a yes/no answer...........

When all the squad is fit does Diskin get in the 17?

You have Buderus who could cover 80mins in a breath if needed, by your calculation you give Diskin the nod over Ali, Ablett, Eastwood, JJB, Kirke?

He can after all, as the coach has stated fill in at the 2nd row.

Or maybe you have Diskin in above Senior, Smith, Delaney?

Or do you drop Webb out of the 17?

He offers nothing, his legs have gone, they went 18 months ago, although clearly sentiment is a high priority in your values, however professional sport isnt run on sentiment, ask Sir Alex Ferguson.

Which were the games where Diskin did the full 80 last season that back that up?

The problem is people, that whilst we get all hot and bothered about someone's inability to see our own extremely reasonable viewpoint,

the elephant in the room is Buderus's agent.

This where the insults and childish retorts start.
There's quite a lot of reasonable debate on this thread from both sides of the fence and plenty of reasonable examples to back each argument.
Then we get this drivel from the great pretender


Diskin has been consistently selected in the 17 when everyone is fit and the records show/prove that so you have nothing to back that reasoning.
Who says Buderus can do 80 minutes in a "heartbeat"? the coach certainly doesn't think so and to imply Disko only gets selected on sentiment is bollox of the highest order.
You don't achieve the success this great club of ours has over the last few years on sentiment.
As for his legs been gone for 18 months


His current form isn't brilliant but there's others who aren't A1 at this moment in time either.
Just like last year with Sinfield you resort to writing certain players off and getting into pi$$ing contests when in reality just like he did last year when we ended the season unbeaten WITHOUT Buderus and 1 no9 Diskin will prove his worth.