I think it's a fair argument that at Leeds Tony Smith inherited a squad that was on the cusp of something special and that Daryl Powell does deserve credit for overhauling a squad that was largely based on ageing big names, to one that was young and hungry. Powell has had some success subsequently that proves he is a good coach.

However if there were any doubts of Smith's ability to turn a squad from underachievers to achievers then look at his record at Warrington - we were crap when he took over from Jimmy Lowes, Smith turned us not only into contenders but trophy winners from the word go, he was to us what Graham Murray was to Leeds from 1998, except he won another Challenge Cup and got us to the top of the league.

Which parameters have you used to assess poor discipline?

Using the nett figure of penalties received - penalties conceded: the negative peak when looking at the past 7 seasons was reached in Leeds' back-to-back-to-back winning season of 2009

It then improved (while still remaining in negative territory) in McClennan's final season in charge when Leeds went trophyless.

Thankfully last season the nett negative count was again on the increase as Leeds returned to the winner's circle.

Are we then to conclude that discipline has declined since Coach McDermott took charge?

mcclennan should be in the hall of fame without a doubt,i don't care what propagand is insinuated rightly or wrongly,his record will simply do for me thanks

Your assessment is simplistic. The number of penalities is not the only way to make a judgement on discipline. Another way is to take into account the sort of penalties given away and at what time in a game or in what field position. A penalty given say for offside in a game where the ref has been letting it go all game IMO is not as bad as say having already given away a penalty then conceding another 10 metres for back chat. IMO under Bluey we did too much of the latter which in many instances led to points against us and perhaps leading to some refs not giving us the benefit of the doubt. This sort of thing was part of an overall decline in entertainment value with a lot of boring one up rugby. Evidence of poor coaching I would suggest.

It is the increase in this sort of poor discipline I am talking about which you obviously hadn't spotted but many others had and led to Leeds gaining a bit of a reputation for always complaining and not accepting decisions against us (Whinos).

You seem to link poor discipline with success. Are you suggesting we try to give away more penalties?

Then the very same could be said of Mcdermott as Head coach someone who you backed to the hilt and had the pleasure of "i told you so" post GF and Wembley.
Lets not forget how dire we were in many games last year and how at times our discipline was disgraceful for pro players of that experience.
You can't have it both ways and the facts remain we were a success under Mclennon and he achieved things NO OTHER COACH had/has achieved in the SL era so it's a "no brainer" he should be in the hall of fame as should Brian Mc when he eventually leaves.

I beg to differ rhinoms. It was the team that achieved things no other team has achieved in the SL era and Bluey deserves credit for his part in that. However in assessing his part in that success you have to take into consideration that he took over the Champion side. But the fact remains that our playing standards declined under his stewardship which is my point. So to include him in the H of F would have to be based solely on the team winning silverware rather than him being a good coach and improving playing standards and individual skills.

Your comparison with BMcD is not a fair one. He did not take over a Champion side - in fact he took over a side in decline that had played badly and with poor discipline for most of the previous season. Add to that the serious long term injuries to key players - plus a host of new injuries early in the season - plus most of the players were 4 years older than when BM first was in charge. So you cannot say the two coaches started with equal resources.

My regular posts backing BMcD were not because I thought everything was ok but were in response to the many hysterical and unfair critics who were calling for his head without taking into consideration the difficult circumstances he had been put in. My much repeated point was 'get off his back and give him a fair chance'. I had been impressed with what I saw of the work he did under Smith and I thought he had something of the Clint Eastwood mean toughness in him that I quite liked.

Our final success in 2011 was again due to the character of this outstanding group of players first and foremost but IMO the part played by BMcD in this success was greater than Blueys was in 2008 and yet he too has "achieved things no other coach has done"

I didn't mean to crow after our Wembley/Playoff/GF performances but there was hardly a one who acknowledged that my stance had been right. So sorry if I rubbed it in too much.

It is too early to make a judgement on BMcD as a coach after just one season. However he has shown great strength of character and dignity through the difficult times, he kept faith in the way he wanted the side to play and improved the side so that they peaked at the right time. His much criticised selections proved inspirational and he brought on the youngsters and improved the performance of others eg Ryan Bailey. So I am very happy so far. Lets see if he can keep the continue with the improvements.

The Hall of Fame should be only for truly oustanding performance otherwise it is meaningless. If it is just about trophies then Bluey should be in, along with the assistant coach Et al.

My assessment of our poor discipline was based on my own observations. Whereas your assessment seems to be based on a concocted formula of "the net figure of penalties received - penalties conceded" The lengths you will go to try and win a point or prove black is white is really weird.



I had stated that Bluey had "presided over a decline in general playing standards with no improvement in our poor discipline" If you do not accept my opinion on this perhaps as you introduced the number of penalties you may like to consider the following two facts that back up my opinion:

1. Under Tony Smith we averaged 157 penalties per season (2004/5/6/7)
Under Brian McClennan we averaged 214 penalties per season (2008/9/10)

That would make an increase of penalties of some 36% - I would say not just a lack of improvement but quite a big decline in discipline under Bluey! Would you agree?

2. Under TS for three out of his four years in charge we gave away the fewest penalties of any team in SL with an average position of 11.25/12.

Under Bluey we moved up the penalty charts to 4th out of 14 teams in 2009 and 6th out of 14 in 2010 with an average position of 6th/14 for penalties given away.

So this again rather underlines the decline in discipline under coach Brain McClennan. But then you knew that all the time didn't you?



With regard to Brian McD, so far he has not managed to alter the Bluey decline in discipline but like I said last year give him time but as BMcD was not the issue it is irrelevant anyway.

JC. Bluey also had many injuries to contend with and a team that at times lost confidence he too blooded youngsters and the game against Cas after the England V France match proved as such.
He also had a an ageing team and players going off the boil and also had to adopt a different style of RL that still brought success.
Bluey had nowhere to go except down when he took over yet he kept us at the top for another 2 yrs and that deserves recognition.
Also Brian Mc did have a squad of very good players who played a lot of awful ,unstructered and ill disciplined RL at times last year but along with the team he did manage to turn it around you are far too easy in your support for Brian Mc whilst showing very little for a back to back Championship winning coach who also tasted success at international level.

I wonder how much weight should be given to the notably public comments of senior Leeds players regarding McClennan's abilities?

Those came about after the 3rd year when it went sour i guess both sides could do with a change then plus there was nothing but praise when we were winning back to back titles and the WCC.

The same key players in the squad were 4 years older for Big Mac than Bluey.

The "awful, unstructered and ill disciplined RL" was inherited from the stuff we played in 2010 under Bluey.

Big Mac had to play the first half of the season without 2 of his key players and it took quite some time for them to get anything like there form back when they did return. The further injuries in the early part of 2011 were so bad that for one match we didn't have a recognised prop or perhaps one out of form one.

I am not "too easy in my support for Brian Mac" I think what he achieved under the circumstances speaks for itself. I also have acknowledged that Bluey deserves credit for his GF wins in taking over the top team in SL at the time but IMO this should not gloss over what was a decline in playing standards and discipline on his watch. I have no axe to grind as I thought Bluey always came over as a decent bloke.

I agree with this statement, but it needs to be qualified and put into perspective. Some may refer to this as [i"looking at the bigger picture"[/i rather than entering into a [i"Tony Smith is better than Bluey or vice versa"[/i p[ii[/issing contest.

Bluey did preside over a decline in general playing standards whilst at Leeds, however this decline has been mirrored by a general decline in playing standards in Super League and across all SL clubs as a whole and this is still an ongoing trend. On the issue of indiscipline as measured by the concession of penalties, Bluey's last two seasons witnessed a bucking the overall Super League trend in terms of percentage increase or decrease in penalties conceded.

=#FF0000In 2007, Smith presided over a 22.2% increase, Super League overall a 5.3% increase.
=#0040FFIn 2008, Bluey presided over an 8.6% increase, Super League overall a 2.8% increase.
In 2009, Bluey presided over a 2.8% DECREASE, Super League overall a 2.0% increase.
In 2010, Bluey presided over a 3.8% increase, Super League overall an 11.7% increase.
=#00BF00In 2011, BMc presided over a 5.5% increase, Super League overall a 2.9% DECREASE.


During the period in which Tony Smith was in charge of Leeds, Super League averaged 2173.25 penalties per season (2004/5/6/7). During the period in which Brian McClennan was in charge of Leeds, Super League averaged 2749.00 penalties per season (2008/9/10). That's called looking at the bigger picture.


You may well arrive at that preset conclusion if your agenda discounts that in Super League overall, the number of penalties conceded in total also increased by a sizeable percentage over the same period.

Statistics may be moulded, shaped or just plainly ignored in an attempt to prove almost any assertion. For instance, someone with a Pro-Bluey agenda could claim that the trend of indiscipline at the club set in whilst Tony Smith was coach, as noted by the most dramatic percentage increases in penalties given away during his final two seasons (2006 and 2007) at the club.

=#FF00002006 saw a 29.6% increase in the number of penalties given away by Leeds under Smith.
2007 saw a 22.2% increase in the number of penalties given away by Leeds under Smith.
=#0040FF2008 saw an 8.6% increase in the number of penalties given away by Leeds under Bluey.
2009 saw a 2.8% DECREASE in the number of penalties given away by Leeds under Bluey.
2010 saw a 3.8% increase in the number of penalties given away by Leeds under Bluey.
=#00BF002011 saw a 5.5% increase in the number of penalties given away by Leeds under BMc.

The decline in playing standards at the club has been ongoing since 2004/05 and no amount of SL titles will cover up that decline. It mirrors the decline in playing standards in Super League overall year on year since then, across all SL clubs.

I fully expect SL in 2012 to witness a further decline in playing standards both at Leeds and overall throughout the competition.

Perhaps but it's also factually accurate.




I'm intrigued as to where this information can be found outside of the number crunchers at Opta. If you had them I'd expect you'd include them but you haven't.



Yes penalties can and often do lead to points, there is no disputing that but why would conceding a further ten metres for dissent be a critical addition to the problem? The original penalty was the issue, the dissent could have slowed the game allowing a vulnerable defence to organize. When Sinfield walks up to the referee to ask for clarification on an infringement it's as often as not a tactic to buy time for his side.

So you're saying penalties specifically for dissent increased under coach McClennan and decreased under coach McDermott?

Those will be interesting stats to see. Your perception (?) may be right but without the counts it's difficult to judge.



The stats will prove this point one way or the other. Do you know a website you can copy and paste them from?



The facts speak for themselves.

__________



Smith's last season in charge was 2007, Leeds finished the regular rounds in 2nd behind St Helens with a playing record of:

Played 27, Won 18, Drew 1, Lost 8, Pts For 747, Pts Against 487, Pts Diff 260, Comp Pts 37

They had no WCC game to interfere with early season, went out of the Challenge Cup at home to Wigan in round 5 and beat St Helens in the Grand Final.

That was the Smith legacy McClennan took over. Leeds finished the regular rounds in 2nd behind St Helens with a playing record of:

Played 27, Won 21, Drew 0, Lost 6, Pts For 863, Pts Against 413, Pts Diff 450, Comp Pts 42

That shows McClennan's Leeds winning more matches, scoring more points and conceded fewer, the seemingly obvious critique to make would be a side more entertaining to watch ball in hand and meaner in defence than the one McClennan had inherited.

They defeated Melbourne to win the WCC, went out of the Challenge Cup at the semi-final stage V St Helens and beat St Helens in the Grand Final becoming the first club in SL history to do the WCC/Champion double in the same season.

My posts simply stated that IMO standards declined under McClennan and our poor discipline was not improved. I had no agenda re one coach over the another. But in order to argue my point (which is only my opinion anyway), when challanged by tvoc and his rather odd way of contesting my point, I had to show that actual penalties awarded against Leeds increased under McClennan when compared with the tenure of Smith.

Yes indeed your stats prove that penalties overall in SL were on the increase, however this fact in no way alters or invalidates my point. Despite this increase in overall penalties what is clear is that when compared to the Smith era not only did we give away more penalties under Bluey but we rose up the penalty conceded charts when compared to the other teams. ie: Under Smith we gave away the least number of penalties of any SL team in 3 seasons on the trot and the other time (2007) there were only 3 teams that gave away fewer penalties. Whereas under McClennan we moved up the penalty conceded charts achieving 9th, 4th, and 6th place.

Thats called returning to the specific point and backing it up with facts that are relevant to the issue.



I tend to agree with you regarding the overall playing standards. However there are exceptions. Warrington played some consistently entertaining and outstanding rugby in 2011 under coach Smith. IMO allowing too much messing around at the ruck area has added to the decline in entertainment value together with some poor standards from the officials.

Really? In the 3 trophyless years prior to the 2003 season we finished at least 12 points off top spot. In 2003 Daryl Powell had assembled a young talented squad that was able to compete for trophies. In the 3 previous seasons I always classed us as the 4th best team behind Wigan, Saints and Bradford.

I fully believe that Powell would have won a GF in the following 3 seasons just like Smith did but we will never know. We may not have had the future period of success that we have enjoyed but we would have won GFs. In no way am I saying Powell is a good a coach as Smith but it is easy to look good when you have the best squad in the League like we did in 04 and 05.

and I full believe we wouldn't.

Like you say, it's pure conjecture but I think Powell was a good young coach but unable to get his players to take things to the next level, like Smith did.

Smith improved teh individual abilities of his players.

The net sum of penalties recieved - penalties conceded may well be accurate but it quite irrelevant to the issue which to remind was as I stated, that Bluey "inherited a champion quality side yet, IMO, presided over a decline in general playing standards with no improvement in our poor discipline"

So your argumentative point in no way changed the facts that are:
In season 2004 under Smith we had 142 penalties awarded against us (Best out of 12 in SL)
In season 2005 under Smith we had 125 penalties awarded against us (Best out of 12 in SL)
In season 2006 under Smith we had 162 penalties awarded against us (Best out of 12 in SL)
In season 2007 under Smith we had 198 penalties awarded against us (9th worst out of 12 in SL)
In season 2008 under Bluey we had 215 penalties awarded against us ( (9th worst out of 12 in SL)
In season 2009 under Bluey we had 209 penalties awarded against us (4th worst out of 14 in SL)
In season 2010 under Bluey we had 217 penalties awarded against us (6th worst out o 14 in SL)

So Smith averaged 157 penalties per season over 4 years with a comparative position of best against the other SL clubs
& Bluey averaged 214 penalties per season over 3 years with a comparative position of 6 worst out of 14 other SL clubs


As you said "The facts speak for themselves."





You missed the very important fact the Leeds were Champions in 2007 which was the real Smith legacy McLennan took over -

As I had stated in fact! So he inherited the top side in SL who were running hot and in good form which you could argue didn't need much coaching but from 2009 despite our GF win the decline in standards began to surface becoming most noticeable in 2010.

This thread reminds me of the line in Wayne Bennett's book about a great captain being more important than a great coach, and a great captain will make the coach look good.

But also maybe my memory is failing me but I seem to remember being a visitor to the Leeds board in 2007 and seeing that the jury was very much out on Tony Smith (prior to the GF win) and the argument of "presided over a general decline in playing standards" was being used against Smith then.

Also when Smith was appointed Warrington coach in 2009 we had a few Leeds fans on our forum warning us not to expect too much...the argument being that Smith had taken over Leeds at the right time to enjoy a season of great success, but then had unbalanced the team, left it short in the front row and seen a slip in playing standards in his last two seasons at Leeds whilst not getting on entirely with all the squad.

To test McLennan's real ability you need a counterfactual of how would he go in a different environment, like Smith and Millward have done. You could argue that Smith was only successful because he had a great squad at Leeds, but his record at Warrington disputes that. You could argue that Millward was only successful because he had a great squad at Saints, and his record at Wigan suggests there is something in that.

He has a great squad at Warrington too. Maybe a fairer test will be to see how he fares as Morley and Briers continue to age.

His record speaks for itself.

He turned Huddersfield around - although they were (finally) relegated in his first season there the progression both within that season and, overall, compared to the previous ones was clear. He then cemented their position in the top flight after getting them promoted and, arguably, laid the foundations for the club being competetive as it remains today.

His challenge at Leeds was to ditch the loser mentality. His error, such as it was, was in doing it so quickly and so emphatically that we all started expecting more, much more and, no doubt, he struggled to deliver as much as we wanted in 2005 and especially 2006. When he quit mid season in '07 general feeling here was that it was the right time but he managed to get the perfect ending - no doubting, based on the testimony of the Leeds players, the legacy of Tony Smith and the impact he had on this group of players remains fundamental to the three subsequent title victories.

At Warrington, he has had an even more dramatic turnaround compared to Leeds. Sure, he has had plenty of money backing him but much of the squad that won those two Challenge Cups were the same as the one that Cullen had taken to the bottom of the league.

His record at club level is, in my mind, pretty much impeccable.

Warrington did have a good squad who were tipped to do well,but underperformed Smith came in and made them play to their potential,he also did a good job at Huddersfield. Good coach

It does. But Smith's Warrington squad was and is a very good one. TS has improved it from where it was, no doubt, but should it fail to win a GF it won't have reached its full potential IMO.

I remember an article back in 2003 on SS.com and it went along the lines of Leeds being only 6 points from glory, indicating that an extra 3 pts in the CC final would have given us the cup, an extra point in the defeat to Bradford in Sept would have landed us the LL shield, and an extra 2 points against Wigan in the play-offs would have won us that game and got us to the GF. At the time I felt we were unlucky to come to the end of the season without some silverware, but when you couple those facts with the fact that we lost to Bulls 5 times that season, and there was fair daylight between us and the other teams, I think it highlights that we were not able to do the little extra things in the tight and big games. ONce Smith came in I think he added steel to a very talented squad, which enabled them to fulfil their potential. The Leeds team he inherited were very good, and had loads of potential, but were missing that little bit to turn them into winners.

Once Bluey came in the team already had that big game mentality and were used to winning. However, it needed to be maintained, and I think he was the right man for the job as Leeds needed someone to keep them fresh, and bring out the best in them once the finals came around. He was probably also highly responsible for the "players having a few less quid in their pockets" mentality, which was a key to their continued unprecedented sucess.

Who gave away more penalties in their tenure? I couldn't give a tuppeny

Just because you don't have the stats for penalties awarded to Leeds doesn't make my chosen formula invalid. I believe Swiftcorn has explained why using raw numbers (albeit only those accrued in regular round fixtures - rather than the full set I use which also include WCC, CC and SL P/O's) have to be set in context of the league as a whole and the direction the RFL are going, i.e. seeking to speed the game up or slow it down. Indeed for next season the RFL are trying to bring about a fall in penalties by encouraging referees to play advantage more often. Should the policy succeed in reducing raw numbers it will in part be down to the officials rather than the specific actions of the SL coaches.

That's why I chose the method I did as it compares the number of penalties awarded against the number conceded in all matches for the given season. It removes having to consider which direction the RFL are heading that season whether attempting to speed the game up or slow it down. Using the head to head rating also removes any effect of inconsistencies between referees where one may average 10 penalties a match and another may average 30 at various points in the season. If your team sees an above average of the latter and a below average of the former your numbers can be skewed because of it.

So using my relative method, if the penalty count is a 5-6 or a 15-16 it counts the same and removes the mood of the referee from the equation, something raw totals cannot do.




Not neccessarily for the reasons I gave above. Your 36% is inaccurate by the way as the per regular round game increase is even greater than that.



If you say so but positions on these tables can be pretty tight where a few extra penalties over a 27/28 regular round season could be the difference between placing bottom (top) and placing mid table. Or to put it another way seeing too much of the wrong type of official can have a disproportionate bearing on the raw data and eventual position.



So when McClennan took charge and the team conceded more penalties that was his fault rather than the previous coach but when McDermott took charge and the team conceded more penalties that was the previous coach's fault?

Just checking.

The lengths you will go to try and win a point which is irrelevant to the issue is rather sad.

The significant increase in penalties in every season Bluey was in charge compared to every season Smith was in charge (with an average penalty count per season up from 157 under Smith to 214 under Bluey) proves my point in real terms.

While our position of conceding the least penalities in SL when compared with all the other SL teams, achieved in the Smith years, was lost as Bluey precided over a decline in discipline as we moved up the the penalties conceded table to reach 4th worst out of 14 in one year. This rather proves the decline in discipline at Leeds when compared with all the other SL teams.

That you haven't the grace to acknowledge that I have proven my point is also rather sad.