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| Quote ="tad rhino"all fair points regarding kirke but crosses stats are near identical. Have we signed a duffer?'"
Look at his defensive stats compared to Kylie - who is the duffer?
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| my apologies. Looking at the phone in sunlight i thought it was 9 tackles!
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| Quote ="thebloodbath"Yup. It was a strange one. Fresh, young, trying, legs would have been helpful.'"
Mmmmmm yes. Don't forget to stretch those creamy hamstrings...
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| Low work rate with the Ball from Cross for sure. he hits the line harder than Kirke but not much more effective.
I'll give him more than 2 games before passing Judgment, unlike Kirke who has been playing this way for a year.
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| Quote ="G1"Aye, and I'd muster that Pitts got significantly less than 5 minutes on the pitch. It was a bemusing use of a forward sub the week after many of the forwards will have had put in many more game minutes than they would normally be used to.'"
A word that sadly you may find yourself using more and more as the season unfolds, and certainly a verb to describe most Quins supporters understanding of his tactics over the past 2 seasons.
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| Quote ="tad rhino"all fair points regarding kirke but crosses stats are near identical. Have we signed a duffer?'"
Bit early to write off Cross. I will be happier when he steps up the number of carries per game but he is the best for marker tackles per game and has put in 60 tackles in 2 games against the poor 40 in 3 for Leuluai who is also the top forward for missed tackles.
Neither Cross or Buderus can be blamed for our current defensive problems. We need to look to Ali & Kylie to be doing more work. Baileys return will tighten the defence around the ruck.
It would be interesting to see the number of points conceded by the forwards compared with the backs to see where we need to improve the most. I have the feeling that we have given away too many points by mistakes from the backs.
So far Sinfield at 6 is making more tackles than McGuire had to do last year which could be that our 13 this year is not covering enough.
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| Quote ="thebloodbath"Just for the record, before the usual 'tards start creaming over the stats:
Kirke brought the ball back twice from the kick-off, in those 2 'drives' he will have made at least 30-35 metres, so factor that in when you look at his average drive.
In reality he made 0 metres once contact was on him. That's the cold, dark, truth.'"
In defence of Kirke if we are going to factor in 2 drives from the kick off accounting for 35 metres it should be pointed out that the other props must have taken 5 drives from the restarts aswell. So knock that off their average yardage aswell.
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| Quote ="Sal Paradise"Look at his defensive stats compared to Kylie - who is the duffer?'"
Kylie ripped his left pec about 5 minutes into the game - I'm surprised he has any stats at all.
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| Quote ="The Magic Rat"In defence of Kirke if we are going to factor in 2 drives from the kick off accounting for 35 metres it should be pointed out that the other props must have taken 5 drives from the restarts aswell. So knock that off their average yardage aswell.'"
I have already blasted our poor forwards overall. That point has been made.
I am highlighting Ian Kirke because after the Hull game a few people were raving about him once they saw his stats. In the Hull game he surprised everyone because he did a forwards job. A job he should be doing week-in-week-out. A job he can't sustain week-in-week-out. He got sympathy pats on the back which is cringe-worthy. So a bit of reality was needed to be brought to light about the Gentle Giant, Ian Kirke.
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| Quote ="thebloodbath"I have already blasted our poor forwards overall. That point has been made.
I am highlighting Ian Kirke because after the Hull game a few people were raving about him once they saw his stats. In the Hull game he surprised everyone because he did a forwards job. A job he should be doing week-in-week-out. A job he can sustain week-in-week-out. He got sympathy pats on the back which is cringe-worthy. So a bit of reality was needed to be brought to light about the Gentle Giant, Ian Kirke.'"
Kudos. You have smarts.
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| however baileys stats going forward are usually poor too. With him and cross both tackling type props we have no go forward from the front rowers, peacock apart. We missed delaney in the pack big style on friday because he really went forward well
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| Quote ="thebloodbath"I am highlighting Ian Kirke because after the Hull game a few people were raving about him once they saw his stats.'"
I thought Kirke generally was receiving praise for his performance rather than his stats.
Even from his biggest critics and rightly so.
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| Quote ="tvoc"I thought Kirke generally was receiving praise for his performance rather than his stats.
'"
People noted a better performances pre stats been up.
Post stats been put up - that's when the heavy pats on the back started.
I clocked that, don't worry about that.
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It's as if you're suggesting people were/are reluctant to post an opinion on a performance until the stats are known.
I never realised Opta were so influential.
I have to say I hadn't noticed Kirke's performance being elevated by the stats (there was certainly no evidence of that on the stats thread viewtopic.php?f=17&t=483796) and I think it had much more to do with the actual stint he'd put in and McDermott's post match comments.
His stats were fairly unremarkable.
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It's as if you're suggesting people were/are reluctant to post an opinion on a performance until the stats are known.
I never realised Opta were so influential.
I have to say I hadn't noticed Kirke's performance being elevated by the stats (there was certainly no evidence of that on the stats thread viewtopic.php?f=17&t=483796) and I think it had much more to do with the actual stint he'd put in and McDermott's post match comments.
His stats were fairly unremarkable.
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| Quote ="tvoc"
His stats were fairly unremarkable.'"
yet still a massive step up from his norm.
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| Looking at average meters made per game for our prop forwards last year, Bailey wasn't that much better than Kirke. An uncomfortable truth for the Bailey fanclub?
Peacock: 152.6
Leuluai: 92.0
Eastwood: 88.5
Bailey: 65.8
Kirke: 50.5
Anyone who thinks Peacock wouldn't have made a difference in the play-offs and CC final is deluded.
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| Quote ="Exeter Rhino"Looking at average meters made per game for our prop forwards last year, Bailey wasn't that much better than Kirke. An uncomfortable truth for the Bailey fanclub?'"
Bailey has many strings to his bow does Ian Kirke?
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| Quote ="thebloodbath"Bailey has many strings to his bow does Ian Kirke?'"
Please elaborate.
Can't include:
1. Winds opposition up
2. Is TMFMISL
3. Has 4 GF rings
4. Stats don't tell you everything
statements backed up by verifiable facts/stats will be accepted not you or any one else's opinion.
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| Quote ="G1"yet still a massive step up from his norm.'"
Three SL Rings suggest otherwise!
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| Quote ="Exeter Rhino"Looking at average meters made per game for our prop forwards last year, Bailey wasn't that much better than Kirke. An uncomfortable truth for the Bailey fanclub?
Peacock: 152.6
Leuluai: 92.0
Eastwood: 88.5
Bailey: 65.8
Kirke: 50.5
Anyone who thinks Peacock wouldn't have made a difference in the play-offs and CC final is deluded.'"
Have you factored in game time or number of carries when calculating these stats?
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| Quote ="Clearwing"Have you factored in game time or number of carries when calculating these stats?'"
No. Here goes though (m/carry):
Eastwood 7.58
Peacock: 7.48
Leuluai: 7.41
Bailey 6.24
Kirke 6.09
Still doesn't look good for Bailey. He's much closer to Kirke than he is to Leuluai.
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| Quote ="Exeter Rhino"Looking at average meters made per game for our prop forwards last year, Bailey wasn't that much better than Kirke. An uncomfortable truth for the Bailey fanclub?
'" Looking at blokes playing rugby on the pitch tells a different story to looking at spreadsheets after the event.
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| Baileys defensive work ethic far outweighs Kirkes. You can see that from just watching the 2 on any given day.
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| Quote ="G1"Looking at blokes playing rugby on the pitch tells a different story to looking at spreadsheets after the event.'"
Why bother posting on these stat threads then?
I'm not claiming that the stats I've posted paint a full picture (Bailey bust nearly twice as many tackles as Kirke last season FWIW), but to decry them as meaningless is pretty crass. I suspect most coaching teams use them quite regularly. I'd take stats over a fan's subjectively formed opinion any day.
And on defence, last season:
Bailey made 485 tackles in 22 appearances, missing 28 = 22.0 per game, 95% success
Kirke made 522 tackles in 24 appearances, missing 42 = 21.8 per game, 93% success
Hardly evidence of a defensive ethic that far outweighs Kirke's.
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| Quote ="Rhino Bucs"Please elaborate.
Can't include:
1. Winds opposition up
2. Is TMFMISL
3. Has 4 GF rings
4. Stats don't tell you everything
statements backed up by verifiable facts/stats will be accepted not you or any one else's opinion.'"
I would suggest those three are facts, apart from the fact his rings were stolen
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