This present rhinos team/squad is distinctively average, it also contains certain players who are below average. My question is how have we arrived at this situation. The main obvious point would be ,did Brian Mac assure GH that the squad was good enough. Or it might be the case that GH said sorry Brian no funds available make do with what you have. Our two star half backs finished last season,so instead of replacing like for like we signed myler and moved moon to stand off. Thus the team was weakened from day one. I realise that we have discussed this at length previously but it’s relevant to the mess sinfield has inherited. Noting that in one interview he said this problem won’t be fixed overnight. My guess would be at least three seasons.

Moon already playing stand-off last season. Who is the other star half-back you refer to - Burrow? He was an interchange hooker who was replaced by Dwyer (who in turn has barely played this season).

I am not questioning Walkers abilities and he certainly looks like a future star, however he is currently not as physically strong in defense as Golding and makes far fewer tackles per game as he is often not in the right place to make those tackles. I agree he looks better on attack than Golding but in practice is not consistently fulfilling that attacking promise. As I said in 16 games this season he has only made 4 clean brakes as opponents have worked him out. And in 16 games he has scored just 1 try with just 1 try assist and his average metres per carry is below that of Golding who has made more tackle busts and less errors. So as a fullback it is just not true that Walker is the better defender or indeed attacker than Golding.

Walker made a total hash of defending Wakefield's first try and at the very least should have tackled the ball carrier and for a specialist fullback this was a bad basic error. He also was no where near the correct position to cover the kick through when Moon slipped for a crucial try against us. In a game where Leeds made 427 tackles Walker only made 2 tackles with 2 missed tackles and 3 handling errors

Now I want to repeat my previous opinion that I really rate Walker and want him in the side but I also fully accept that Walker is very young and has loads of development to come. But I think he is currently suffering from having to run too often into heavy traffic from kick chasers resulting in several injuries and this has dulled his edge. Hence I would like to see him at 6 for a few games at least as I believe he could be a revelation and with Moon playing so badly we have nothing to lose and everything to gain.

I agree with you that Golding has made "a dam good job of impact hooker previously" but I think you are drawing the wrong conclusion from your negative comment about his impact this time. When Golding replaced Dwyer, Singleton was also replaced by Oledzki at the same time who was turned out to be pretty ineffective and a few minutes later Cutherbertson also went off. Around this time Wakefield were able to introduce some real impact from their bench.

Golding was on the field for around 30 minutes and in that time made 30 tackles, 5 dummy runs and 6 carries with no errors and when he left the field we were still in the lead. So a lack of performance from his colleagues cannot be blamed on Golding. For the same reason when Dwyer returned he should not be blamed for us then losing our lead in his second stint, although it should be noted he gave possession and field position away with a speculative failed drop goal attempt when we should have kicked for position.

I think Dwyer had his best game for Leeds but would not have made 69 tackles had he stayed on for the full 80 which is the total of Dwyer and Golding combined (Dwyer 39 tackles and 4 missed tackles and 1 errors in 50 minutes Golding 30 tackles and 1 miss and zero errors in 30 minutes)

I would like both Walker and Golding to feature in the Leeds 17 for many years to come.

For the last 7 losses we have been without JJB our best defender. Not a coincidence.

clutching at straws Juan.
nowhere near our best and don't quote stats. stats don't show the number of times he's caught going back as he's to slow. or the gaps he leaves. his legs have gone.
I love him and we have missed his influence but best defender??? not even close

Having been a long term critic of Handley's defence (and still am) I have to take issue with you regrading his attacking performances this season as a stand in centre. In my opinion he has greatly improved and has out performed Watkins and of course Sutcliffe on attack.

I know you do not like stats because they are facts you cannot dispute so you will enjoy having to agree that Handley is our top try scorer and is equal 2nd best for try assists and our 3rd best both for clean breaks and for tackle busts These are all better averages per match than Watkins and he also has a better metre per carry average than Watkins.

Now while this does not make him Mal Meniga it does make him better than average as an attacking centre. However what does let him down badly is his defense.

stats can be misleading. are you saying he's better than watkins? your stats say he is.
I rest my case

Not clutching at straws at all. He consistently makes the most tackles per game and consistently leads our line speed and kick chases. (If his legs are gone what excuses do the rest of our pack have?)

He is sometimes slow going back because he has made a number of consecutive tackles but is more often a marker tackler having been first into the tackle.

Of course he is past his best but in my opinion not past his sell by date and I am sure Sinfield will be relying on him to boost our defense when he regains fitness. He should now be used in spells and still has much to offer.

in short spells I agree. but macdermotts flogged him for 60 minute spells. terible bad management.
I'm sure he will be invaluable this season. next? he should hang his boots up

No I am not saying he is better than Watkins who is a far more talented rugby player.

But I am contesting your opinion that Handley is a below average attacking centre. And like it or not he has been the most effective Leeds attacking centre this year.

Are you saying Watkins has scored more tries than Handley or made more try assists or clean breaks or tackle busts.?

I've no idea. but it still doesn't alter my opinion. he's still bang average.

…and this all goes to prove that it is ALWAYS better to base your opinion on what your eyes tell you than from a piece of paper/web page.

Exactly. But he’s right in comparison to Leeds centres from an attacking point of view.

However, Handley until this latest round, and I assume still is, is the worst defender in Super League in terms of percentage of missed tackles to tackles made. In terms of that particular part of his game, he is below average, and a long way.

Anyone who thinks Handley compares in any way favourably with Watkins needs medical help

To be fair to Handley, he has improved massively this season, and I think there's a very good centre there. If he continues to develop physically and can improve his defence he can be a very good SL player.

Interesting concept, are we developing next gen players now?

Christopher do you have selective reading syndrome?
If you read my post I said he is still young and will develop.
But wrt your eyesight I think if you watch the game again Walker made more than one mistake on Friday.
At the moment he is no Ben Barba, Sam Tomkins or Zak Hardaker but he might get near in the future but not at present is all I was saying.
For me the best full back on the pitch was in a Wakefield shirt.
So less of the ffs hey.

While no world beater he’s doing a lot better than sutcliffe. Read his own hype too young and he is average at best

Read my posts Sal.

I was not comparing Handley and Watkins as rugby players period and I pointed out Handley's shortcomings in defense.

However what you cannot argue with is the Handley this season has been one of our best attacking players and not below average as Tad claimed. He is our top try scorer and has outperformed Watkins in many of the attacking aspects of the game such as try assists, clean breaks, tackle busts and of course tries.

The only thing that has been proven is that the facts recorded for the number of tries scored, clean breaks made, tackles bust and try assists which provide the KPIs for each player. I have seen most of these on TV which are often show from different angles from which I too form my own opinion with what my eyes tell me. But in my case the KPIs back up my eyes and my opinion.

I am only commenting on Handley's attacking performances this season and not his defensive liabilities.

I wouldn't of given that try of Woods, but it makes up for the crap that Child served up v sts

Handley is poor defensively, but he's getting tries whilst also not completely blocking Hall out of the game. That's important because we're scoring less than 20 points per game across all games this year. At least that edge is a threat.

Walker just looked a really average full back. He has zero presence running the ball back, is pretty ineffectual in the tackle and creates little in attack when we have the ball. His biggest issue by far is his lack of size and strength. He'll never be a man mountain, but in the off-season he needs to put on some serious bulk. I'm completely serious in saying he wouldn't be playing anything other than U19s in Australia. He wouldn't be up to the physicality of the Queensland Cup, never mind NRL (where Hardaker was considered 10 kg too light).

My main fear is that if he continues playing full back the way he does, he'll end up being another kid with promise who gets his confidence blown away and ends up in the Championship or worse. Walker has got talent, but right now for full back is a weakness in our first 17, and he's only marginally better than Golding.

don't care what the stats say about clean breaks or trys scored he's nowhere near good enough to be a regular. not if we want to be a top side again

Assuming you're talking about Handley, he definitely needs to get better, but compared to other positions its simply less important. To me we look weak as the proverbial at fullback and stand off in the backs, and backrow in the forwards. Prop we just need more of a group. Average is the best that far too many of our squad could aspire to. I can't think of more than a couple of our forwards who'd be automatic in a top 4 first 17 - Ward and Garbutt. Both of them miss a lot of games. The rest, and I include Cuthbertson in the core role of prop - taking the ball in hard and tackling - are average plodders.

Agreed, Handley is awful.

One trick pony.