G1 and his merry brigade of bog snorcklers wouldn't want Slater, it would upset Webb you see who has some GF winning rings.............

G1 and his merry brigade of bog snorkelers wouldn't want Slater, it would upset Webb you see who has some GF winning rings.............

Ah Heron, hope you've managed to get all that egg scrapped off your face. Moustaches can be so messy at times eh?

Perhaps you'd care to answer the question posed to you last week as to why past performances should trump current form?

Welcome back G1. I hope the colonic irrigation was all that you hoped for!

Sadly, the simian grunts from Heron and the Gingher last week were a far cry from your own erudite and structured debate on this topic.

It will be as though Shakespeare himself is posting!

You mean why form and consistancy of form over more than a few games should be considered as opposed to (very debatable) player assessments made by you and a couple of others? I don't have to, there's no argument to make. I know it, several others on here know it and the Leeds coaching staff and management know it.

Look, I know you and a few others, have had to endure being made to look slightly foolish at times last year, when Buderus turned out to be less than a fabulous signing. Patchy form, continuous injuries and even worse, Matt Diskin once again showing with him as the only hooker in the side we have better results (TVOC has put those numbers up before)n and we end up topping the table and winning a GF - again (that's last year in case you forgot, not 5 years ago or 6 years ago - 7 months ago). So I guess it was understandable that as soon as Buderus showed anything even half resembling the form Diskin regularly shows that you would take your chance to craw. But my initial assessmant stands. You are a bunch of spoiled kids.

For the record, I thought signing Buderus was not a bad idea initially. He was a quality player who became available to cover a position where we had nothing to back up Diskin should he suffer a long term injury. As it turned out he's been an average signing. Barely playing last year and hardly impressing when he did. We seem to be getting better value from him this year - which is good for the team - but I am baffled by why this immediately triggers a wave of player bashing the likes of which I haven't seen since we had Richie Mathers at the club. I can only assume that the desire to get "even" with certain other posters who have in the past made you look like a numpty.

And as for the egg, there isn't any. And I have a beard at the moment, not just a tash.

It was a pitiful attempt Titchy and got the response it deserved, don't be a mardy bum now.

Anyone who has seen team sheets from the last season and a half knows the answer.

Poor William.

One day someone will care if you live or die. One day.

Hold onto that hope. Be brave. Don't take the coward's way out.

I'm rooting for you.

Jee Wizz. It seemed a perfectly good discussion on the subject before this morning.

I wonder what the commond denominator is that's made it a childish farce now.



I thought the schools were off last week, not this.

I'm a big fan of Buderus, and think he adds loads to the team, and more than Diskin does, and has done really since 2004.

Diskin should not be binned though. he has proved that he can do the business, ok so he may be on poor form, but he has the ability and attitude to pull through that and show his true ability.

In terms of the match day 17, I think Buderus staring does well, and having Diskin on the bench allows Buderus to do two good stints, when he can really make an impact, and make an impression on the game. Would he be as sharp in the last minutes of the game, if he'd been on for the 80? Its ceryainly doubtful. I trust in Bluey's judgement.

As a slight tangent, with Sinny at 6 these days, and a limited squad this week, what would people think about him starting at 13?

On people valuing GF rings highly vs Marquee signings currently doing the business, how do they rate Ian Kirke vs Eastwood?

You can not ask a sensible thing like that. That goes against all the criteria, and only highlights the hypocrisy that exists with certain posters.

Bullseye.


(Though I do also think that some posters, when comparing the Buderus apple with the Diskin orange, will bemoan the latter's lake of pips and green skin rather than recognising them as 2 different comodities).

A good point. Diskin has great workrate, and solid defence. These things often go unnoticed by less knowledgeable posters. Buderus has brutal defence and at times rips team apart around the ruck, these things are more noticeable to the untrained eye. I'd want to have elements of both on my team.

Good question but IMO it's not the same as Diskin/Buderus

Their is only 1 hooking position in the team, neither have come through the Leeds academy or given the same amount of service of Diskin, neither are planning on leaving next year (I think) so it's hard to compare the two scenarios.

IMO Eastwood is better than Kirke and Buderus is better than Diskin.

I would rather keep Diskin over Buderus for other reasons, I'm not sure anyone has said Diskin is a better player than Buderus if that's what this debate is about.

I think it's more about the hypocrisy that exists in certani posters. Thanks for confirming and highlighting it further.

Leicesters question was more, why does GF rings apply to certain players and not to others.

And by the way there is 2 hooking positions not one, as I think the whole idea of having both Diskin and Buderus is so that we can play the two hooker game.

And further I think the argument of posters like Leicester and PA, is that we are perfectly fine playing the two hooker game and therefore should have both.

Leicesters question was why does GF rings apply to certain players and not to others.

I'm not sure who you are levelling the hypocrisy at and what I have highlighted?

When I said 1 hooking position I meant the traditional 1 hooker at a time on the field, I have no problem with using 2 hookers, it's a system that has brought plenty of success to other clubs during the SL era.

Its not about who's better, merely that people judge some people with some criteria and some with another. The way I see it personally is that Kirke doesn't get into the first choice 17, Diskin does.

Their salaries probably reflect this.

Gotcha pretty much sums it up for me

I can see the point being made re Kirke & Eastwood and its not without validity.

Digressing slightly, my own view of Kirke is that he's cheap and does 'some work' allowing his more able team mates a bit of a breather in order that they're more effective in their contributions. When injury free and in a big game I wouldn't expect him to make the 17 - though he often does.

That's part of how I believe Diskin is utilised - his presence enables Buderus to operate with greater intensity - but Diskin's workrate (even bearing in mind the difference in positions) and effectiveness are far greater relative to Kirke's.

I'm going to digress again.

When I think of teams playing with 2 hookers I tend to think of quite contrasting hookers. Case in point Newton & Jackson at Leeds - the rugged former being around for the opening 20 before allowing on the more skilled but less robust Jackson. I suppose other examples would be Saints with James Roby or when Leeds used Rob Burrow - players whose main contribution is to run out of dummy half.

I don't necessarilly see that as being the case with Buderus & Diskin. Instead they spell each other to keep each other fresh - most particularly in the case of Buderus - and whilst they're different types of player neither are obvious 'interchange hookers'.

I'm happy with how it works though. Where I'd certainly be in the pro Diskin camp is if one were to be relied on as a week in week out 80 minute hooker in which case it would have to be Diskin.

Completely. Kirke is essentially cannon fodder to do some hard work, and be a body in the line for 20-40mins a game whilst other take a breather. Its not his fault he's the only one to stay fit all season.

Diskin is a player who has good ability and can shape a game, and put his stamp on it

You see, your arguments are much more beneficial and accurate to a discussion than at times others.

I think you sum things up well and accurate.

The major dissagreement which I have with your viewpoint and I presume others also, is that the Diskin you talk about, I don't think anything has been seen of this season to back it up. And whilst you talk about keeping fresh, do you not think the same should apply to Diskin also? if we want to get the best out of both we should surely be operating that way?

Had this been last season that whole post above would have been agreed with by the vast majority rather than a big split, that I am sure of.

I thank you for your thoughts Ginger Bob, and will amend my Will to leave you the silver candlesticks.

I think it applies far more to Buderus than Diskin.

At 28 you'd expect Diskin to be able to cope with 80 minute football week in week out, and his experience last year backs that up.

At 32 its not so likely that Buderus would be as capable at dealing with it. More specifically he hasn't had any run like that for Leeds, and you'd need to go back to 2006 to find the last time he did much more than half a season as a solo hooker for Newcastle (in 2007 he missed 12/25 rounds and 10/25 in 200icon_cool.gif. Two years and two serious injuries further on, now aged 32, I think its clear why he's regulalrly spelled and still gets rested for the odd game.

Moreover, if Buderus is significantly the superior player its difficult to see why the coach continues to spell him - unless he either thinks he isn't capable of doing regular 80 minute stints or that he can get more quality from him in short bursts, which I think the record above demonstrates.

For example, Buderus can be lauded for the intensity of his defence or for his ability to change a game late on. Its not unreasonable to assume that he would be less effective in these exploits if he hadn't had a decent breather in the previous 60/70 minutes

Just be sure to wash them first.