TBH, I think it says more about you.

OK - I know you can be very obtuse when you want - but answer this - would you consider the standard of rugby Leeds offered in 2011 to be of a high standard and high entertainment value?

What would say about the standard this season?

The standard of rugby was good enough to win, and that's all that matters. I don't care if we win ugly, or play beautiful rugby, whatever that is - some want to see 12 passes to get to a winger, I'd rather see attacking defence.

My fault though earlier. I'd pointed out that expectations always rise. When we win a Grand Final, it's not enough because we should win every game. When we win every game, it's not enough and we need to win in a different style. What I'd missed is the point that when we win trophies, some still want to put the achievement down to poor opponents and a poor league rather than enjoy the success.

With last season and this Leeds have offered different standards of rugby. On occassions they have been sublime, on occasions they have been good and on occasions they have been poor.

You know what, that pretty much sums up every team in every season to a certain degree.

I think Richie is right, you have a different outlook than him and me. I often wonder what you get out of your experience of watching Rugby League.

For me, last season's Grand Final was the most satisying of them all. The journey there had it's ups and down but to acheive through adversity and to lift yourselve from the depths to vanquish others that may be better than you is the greatest acheivement of them all.

All I ask is the team plays close to its potential - I would prefer if they win - but you simply cannot win every game. Leeds only played to anything like their potential on 3/4 games in the whole season . At the end of the day this is entertainment nothing more - this is not soccer, I want to the best players to show real skill, perhaps that is why its so refreshing to watch the Aussie national side - a side who are able to do the game's simple skills effectively and consistently.

Gareth, I never thought you a dreamer but what real depth/adversity did these pampered professionals suffer? Being written off based on the quality of your own performances doesn't count as adversity?

Can I recommend "Secret millionaire" on Yorkshire TV tonight. A guy comes back to his home city to help the needy and his car is carjacked with him inside.

But you thought I was dreamy didn't you?

A nightmare for some I'd have said.

Did you prefer the 2005 season to last season?
Imo we played some of the most entertaining rugby I have seen from a Leeds team in 2005. Yet we reached both finals and lost them both. Some fans on here have described 2005 as a diappointing season.
Last season we were indifferent for most of the year yet it was ultimatley a successful finale ending as champions.
I got more enjoyment from watching the team on a weekly basis in 05 but give me last season everytime.

Me too.....

it also makes the decision as to whether it would be worthwhile making the commitment to purchase a season ticket a lot easier

Me too.

If you look at the weekly results in 2005, certyainly prior to the CC final, that team was more dominant than the 2004 version. Yet it won nowt and the season was a bitter dissapointment.

We won the WCC

Without a doubt - as I said winning isn't the be all and end all. I want to see elite players playing the game to elite standards - so by that criteria 2005 was a superior year.

Sal Paradise doesn't value that at all. But good point.

I've always wondered if those people who simply measured success by the number of trophies in the cabinet at the season's end, were of the "never mind the quality, feel the width" school of thought.....

Well, you may say he's a dreamer.

But he's not the only one.

I hope some day, you'll find us.

Trophies won for me.

I had a great time following Leeds in 2005. It certainly didn't compete with the euphoria of 2004, and actually I think I am able to reflect on it more fondly in light of the 4 titles we've won since. But, we did play some of the best rugby I've seen from any side in this country, particluarly in the first half of the season. But ultimately the point of professional sport is to win, and a season which bumbles along and ends on a high sits better in my memory than one that starts with fireworks and then fizzles out.

Did you manage to watch all season in 2005 or just pick and choose the odd game?

It certainly didn't "fizzle out". We hit an injury situation because of the coaches silly decision. That same decision cost us both trophies in the end. The season however was still fantastic, and the rugby the best we have played throughout any era since the 70's.

Are you really saying that last season compared to 2005 just because we actually managed to receive a trophy in that year?

I did see the whole season, home and away, from beginning to end, thanks for patronising though.

When you start (and continue through the middle) as the dominant force in the league before ultimately falling short and winning nothing, that counts as fizzling out in my book. You can blame the coach's decision re Senior for the loss in Cardiff without too much objection (while I maintain that you can't know what would have happened had he selected a different team) but to blame the Grand Final defeat on that doesn't really stack up. By the time we got to Old Trafford, that decision had ruled one player out. Big deal. What cost us that trophy was that we ran out of steam while Bradford peaked at the right time and won (13?) on the spin at the end of the season.

So, am I saying that last season compared to 2005? Depends what you mean. For direct comparison it was a very different season, but for me the low points made the ultimate high point all the more sweet. I certainly didn't feel as chirpy walking away from Old Trafford at the very end of 2005. Several games from 2005 linger in the memory and I enjoyed the season. As I say, I would probably remember it less fondly had we not subsequently reclaimed that trophy. For me, last season the ultimate goal was accomplished, in 2005 it wasn't. For me, that makes it a better season. You can view it differently (surely this is a subjective thing after all) but I fail to see the point of getting all uppity and incredulous because my view is different to yours.

You'd think your six foot wanger would make you a little less insecure than that.

2011, will only be remembered for what, 3 games maybe?!

Should rugby league have a "Harlem Globetrotters" exhibition team for those that care more about "entertainment" than being champions?