Went back to RU iirc.

Completely agree re-Sutty but i also think there's plenty if potential with Lilley.

No I did not say this. However after a fantastic start to the season with the whole team in good form (in which Sutty figured at 6 when Sinny was injured) we then lost our way a bit without a win in 3 games while Sutty was at 6. Sinfield then replaced him and we got back to winning ways again. The reason I make this point is to challenge your suggestion and inference that Sutty deserved to keep the 6 spot and his good form was keeping Sinfield out and only injury prevented him remaining there which was not the case.




I have never said Sutty hasn't played well. He has been a valued utility player over quite some time. The issue is whether he is a natural 6.



We are all only expressing opinions. Mine have been consistent over time and not based just on recent events. Because I sometimes offer a different opinion to the pack doesn't make me wrong either.



I am not challenging Sutcliffe's place in the squad - just his position. Without a replacement for the Sinfield role our squad is unbalanced and we lack adequate cover in the halves when McGuire is unavailable as events have proven. This was predicted by some. If we had players capable of playing the pivot role at 13 or FB then it would be ok to play just a runner at 6. But IMO we need at least 2 creative pivots in the side.

MS - From what I've seen (which I admit is not a great deal) Lilley appears to be a slower, non- tackling version of Paul McShane. I could only see him in the hooking role at Leeds but he'd have to improve his defence first, as ever just my opinion.

According to Wiki Simon Worrall continued to play League in the domestic French comp.

But that is what happened.

JC-Re 2 creative pivots i agree & i think GH has got the signing at 9 wrong hopefully he improves as for another creative pivot that does & should fall to Mags as the more exp HB imo.

Hmmm im sure whilst watching a Rhinos game back on sky SW was puctured in the crowd which was followed with EH saying he was plying his trade back in RU?
WRT JL having watched his Acadamy career i think he potentially could become a goid old scholl type 7 with a good varied kicking game ,very vocal & reads defences well but time will ultimately prove it.

I know we would agree about something

No, Brown was a very good player at Wigan also. Who replaced him? he still went to his next club and also put in quality performances. He has got better, but he always showed the quality at a young age, and that is the difference from what we are seeing with Sutcliffe. He has never really showed he is a stand off, and that is the argument. Not whether he can get better, or will he succeed in another position, but his ability in the stand off role. If the argument is it will take years, then he needs to play another position in the team to learn before they try him there again, because a championship chasing club can not wait around with poor performances for the player to get better. If he was showing some quality it would be different, but he isn't.

You might be able to level it but not label it, even then you're quite wrong. Gaskell and Sutcliffe were similar only in their rangy stance. Sutcliffe is a much bigger unit and has the strength that goes with it.

I suspect Gaskill's failure had more to do with his attitude than anything else but Saints wouldn't be the first SL club to have shut the door on someone based on short term aspirations.

We've produced one decent half back in the last ten years and at a time when there was no where for hm to go. In any event, I thought the club were wrong then and I bet they have regretted it since, in fact, probably for the last six weeks.

Your opinions are based on personal prejudice, you only have to look at your continued criticism of Burrow for evidence of that. You've written his value to the team off on about five separate occasions to my knowledge and been (noticed the correct use of the word) proved wrong every time.

Oh, and before you go off on one, Burrow was and never will be a creative half back. However, he was and still is, one of the best impact players in the game. IF he is used properly!

As there has been some attempt to quantify Leeds 2015 results in relation to who started at stand off the totals I have are these:

McGuire - Played 4, Won 3, Drew 0, Lost 1 ... 75%
Sinfield - Played 23, Won 17, Drew 0, Lost 6 ... 74%
Sutcliffe - Played 9, Won 6, Drew 1, Lost 2 ... 72%

If Burrow in the last second at the John Smith's hadn't slipped on his arris or passed to his support Sutcliffe could have had 78% there but he did slip and stick and ultimately that's what counts.

Kevin Brown showed such great quality at a young age that in 2006 - a year in which they were struggling badly - Wigan sent him on loan to Huddersfield and then allowed him to sign for the Giants permanently despite still having a year left on his contract.

Given that good British half-backs are like rocking horse droppings, I'm not sure why Wigan would allow such a quality player to leave? Unless they weren't prepared to wait for him to mature and were happy to send him off to be someone else's problem?

That worked out well for them, didn't it?

We don't have single half back of any real quality playing SL and if Tommy Smith is the best we can muster at international level, we really have hit rock bottom. The game as whole needs to take a long hard look at itself, we are producing athletes but without any real skill.

I read an article about Tim Sheens reviewing Ellis upon his arrival at Wests. Sheens was of the view that Ellis possessed almost none of the basic skills required to play within an NRL structure, although he clearly possessed the basic talent to be developed.

At the time, I dismissed it as a typical Phil Gould type Pom bashing exercise but when you look around the game right now, you have to concede that Sheens was probably right.

Ronzy - I thought Tommy Smith was Adrian Morley



If Sutcliffe is expected to replace Sinfield's stand off role at Leeds - that would be difficult for anyone initially and will take some time if that is the intention. McGuire was best placed to do that albeit from alongside at scrum-half but the injury scuppered that plan. The alternatives at scrum-half have not assisted Sutcliffe the way McGuire would have and the result have been painfully plain to see. However I don't blame Sutcliffe's performances for that.

Brown was a good player and got better, Wigan should have held on (today's Wigan would have albeit only until he left for the NRL perhaps) and Leeds would and should still persevere with Sutcliffe who has the makings of a good player also but he needs support.

So in other words you have nothing to add but a personal opinion, which is fine, yet you have a go at someone else for a personal opinion.

They had Danny Orr at the time, and had signed Trent Barrett to follow. We have a salary cap, you can't sit with players hoping when you already have better. Isn't this the exact argument you and others have used as to why we have not given players chances at half back previously from our junior teams? that is exactly what Brown found himself in at Wigan. I am sure they regretted it many times after, but regardless he was miles ahead of Sutcliffe at that age.

Adrian Morley probably has a better passing game than Smith but you can see the similarities.

My recollection of Brown at Wigan was that he had some pace, strength and half decent timing but, above all, he did have potential. To suggest that he was miles ahead of Sutcliffe is ridiculous. For every admiring comment you can find on Brown from that time, I could show you raps for Sutcliffe given by the likes of Sinfield.

Sutcliffe has potential, the club need to find out if he can turn that potential into genuine quality. Otherwise, we could be making the same or a much bigger mistake than Wigan did with Brown.

Just noticed Leeds lost a total of 9 games in 2015, anyone know what they are up to as we appoach a third of the season mark in 2016. I wonder whatever happened to those posters who were complacently comparing last season's results to this while trying to convince themselves all's well and that black is really white.

Fact - Burrow has proved himself to be a superb impact player and an invaluable asset to Leeds. You wrote him off at the beginning of last year and yet, he contributed much to the success we enjoyed.

Fact - We have produced one decent half back in the last ten years (who didn't stay at the club).

Fact - Gaskell is nothing like Sutcliffe, other than they are both over six feet tall.

I don't mind debating matters and I'm well aware that much of what we discuss is based solely on opinion. You are the one who constantly casts your opinions as facts.

The stats from TVOC would suggest that our problems are not stemming from the SO position, as the team performed fairly consistently with all three options playing in that position.

My opinion is that we have a real problem at acting half and we are lacking a good deal of confidence. Correct those two issues and we will win more games than we lose. At this stage in the redevelopment of the side, that would be acceptable from MPOV.

Again, your personal opinion. There is not one fact there at all. You need to look up what a fact is.

I wrote Burrow off as a scrumhalf, and that is factual. He isn't a scrum half. Correct as usual. Nobody, even his biggest critics have argued about impact value.

We have produced decent half backs. They have just drifted away due to not having the opportunities. The fact you name one, is because it is the only one you know about. Your lack of knowing others is not a problem for anyone else.

Sutcliffe is exactly like Gaskell in everyway he plays, and again Gaskell was not deemed good enough for the one role. But is an excellent utility in various roles. Not however, good enough to hold down the one role in a top team.

Dont't try and quote facts that have no substance. You want an opinion, that is your perogative and perfecetly fine, but if you can't handle others then don't visit message boards.

Your statement on Burrow last year was "he offers nothing to this team". Not so factual there old cheese.

If we produced decent half backs, you name them then? I've told you we produced one (Luke Gale) and he has proven his quality (another fact).

I never saw anything of Gaskell to suggest that he could barge his way through a gap. With over four years on Sutcliffe, he still only now of comparable weight. He certainly was not that size in 2011.

At scrum half. That is differnet to your context. I also said at the weekend that I wanted to buy an expensive watch, I didn't however say it a couple of years ago.




Like I said, the fact that you are unable to name them proves my point that you only know about something when it hits the headlines, hence the Gale one. I bet when he was in his Bradford days, which incidentally I always argued with Bradford fans he was quality when they kept saying he wasn't, you wouldn't have taken him at all. Gareth Moore is still he best potential halfback I have seen at Leeds since McGuire started, but he wasn't given anything close to the opportunites Sutcliffe is getting now, and as a result slipped away down a none full time path. Others go the same way, as their focus goes. That doesn't mean they couldn't have made it, it means they were not give the opportunity and therefore gave it up.



Yet the sky team were declarying him man of steel in his first full season, with his try assists and try's far exceeding Sutcliffe last season. I suggest maybe you just didn't realise because you didn't see the potential in him that the sky team did. Just like others do not see the potential in Sutcliffe that you believe now. Like I said, personal opinion.

Sorry, sticking my nose in on this one, regarding brown, he got sent on loan to huddersfield as part of the 'cap management' involved for signing stuart fielden, obviously though going back to your discussion wigan did deem him expendable.

Sutcliffe has had much more than 6 good games as you well know, hes been playing 1st team since 2013 and has deputised very well for Sinfield or Mcguire when they were out. In 2013 without him our season could have gone to pot, and he had some good games in 2014 such as the narrow loss to Saints after Wembeley when we had only 12 men for most of the match and he was our best player.

Most 6s only perform when their team is on top. There is maybe only 3 players in the world atm that can win a game when the rest of their team is beaten.
Everyone is raving about Sandow atm but as we will see, when the going gets tough the Sandow goes missing