Quote ="rhinoms"Hints that there may be one more arrival at the bottom of this article.. www.yorkshireeveningpost.co.uk/s ... _1_3881922'" icon_lol.gif I'm more of a fan of MUMOOWM than most on here, but I think this praise is a little OTT. He does a specific job for the team, and does it well, but I don't think he's much better than he was 3 or even 5 years ago

Quote ="rhinoms"Hints that there may be one more arrival at the bottom of this article.. www.yorkshireeveningpost.co.uk/s ... _1_3881922'" icon_lol.gif I'm more of a fan of MUMOOWM than most on here, but I think this praise is a little OTT. He does a specific job for the team, and does it well, but I don't think he's much better than he was 3 or even 5 years ago

Now Hardaker has come in and done well. I am however caught in two minds as whether he should be our mainline centre next season. On the one hand I'm a believer in the mantra that if you're good enough youre old enough. ON the other hand though, I think it adds a lot of pressure onto the lad. He's had a meteoric rise, and I think there is huge pressure on him. Now, he may rise to this pressure, and he certainly has done so far, but we have seen lots of very promising youngsters come in make a big first impression then fade away, the likes of Gibson, Tansey, William spring to mind.

Hardaker needs to learn the game, learn the position, and learn how to bounce back when he's more of a known quantity. If he can do this he will be a cracking player. If opposition coaches study his game, and start to exploit weaknesses, then being our frontline centre option could be a bad idea.

Callum Casey signs for Halifax, link on first post.

Leicester - not sure what weaknesses you might be referring to WRT Hardaker. He played a GF and the qualifier the week before against two of the best attacking sides in the competition, and neither got anything much past him. Given his complete inexperience in the role you'd have to bet that both Tony Smith and Simmons would have targeted him to an extent.

He may suffer a bit from 'second season syndrome', but that's going to be in attack. Personally I think he's got the raw ability (including an ability to read the game which showed in some of his GF defence) and physical attributes to make a very good centre. When you compare to Gibson for example, I'd say he was both bigger and faster. He hasn't yet developed (or perhaps not shown?) the handling skills that he needs to be top notch, but given that most of his career to date has been spent on the wing, that's understandable.

In any event, unless there was a world class star elsewhere (which Welham for example isn't) I'd prefer to chuck him the shirt and tell him to learn on the field.

Think if someone is good enough they should be playing. Think in the case of hardaker and Watkins they will develop and learn more in the first team rather than in the reserve grade

One of Hardakers early season weaknesses was that at times he did a very good impression of a turnstyle. I can live with being out of position on occasion, experience will hopefully sort that out, but poor tackling technique is more of a problem at SL level. Again, along with others, a close season with the defence coaches should bring an improvement for 2012.

Whilst throwing a shirt to someone and telling them to learn the skills needed for that position may work at the under 8 schoolboy level, I doubt even BMD would consider such a daft move. If Hardaker is to be our centre, he will have already shown the neccessary ball handling skills, and more importantly the rugby brain with which to exploit these skills. He may well kick on and claim the position in a Keith Senior style, but at this stage in his career, despite an exciting season, it's very much work in progress.

Don't know what you've got against Welham, as he's already shown over the course of a regular season what he's capable off in the centre position, and that for me is a better yardstick than simply two games at a season's end. I also think you don't have to be World Class to replace a player at Headingley.....simply better. And at this stage in their respective careers, Welham is demonstratively better than our current options, and would provide an immeadiate improvement next season in what would be an outstanding backline.

And to all those who are asking what would that say to our younger players? It would say Welcome to the Real World. You may be cock of the walk in your own age group, but you are a professional sportsmen, and you will have to compete for the rest of your careers, and show that you are the guy who should be first on the Coach's list.

There was little or no evidence of defensive weakness in any of the games played in the latter part of the season. in which case, wouldn't you say that he had learned from his errors?



Well his defense exceeds some of Senior's later work for a start off, so no need to kick on from there. The guy was in the team that won a major semi final and final. Furthermore, he scored a hat trick in the first round play off game way at Huddersfield. What skills do you want him to show before he gets the nod?




Well Hardaker played more than two good games at the season's end, so I'm still at a loss. I have nothing against Welham and believe he would be a good addition to the squad but, other than scoring 27 (from memory) tries, which should not be under estimated, what else can you say about him? I haven't checked the stats but, i'd like to bet the try assists and missed tackle columns aren't that impressive.

As a very big fan of Hardaker, I agree with all this except the operning paragraph.

Should a signing like Welham come off, it would be in similar vein to the one we pulled off for Ellis, and nobody was complaining then despite it been on the back of a GF win.

Not saying Welham will ever be as good as Ellis, but it would be a similar sort change in their respective ages, ambitions, and clubs leaving.

Hardacker for me should not be pigeon holed this early in his career as a centre. He has all the hallmarks to be a massive star. He is equally as good at fullback, as he is on the wing, as he is in the centre. And even Daryl Powell came out last week tipping him for the very top as potentially a star stand off. Let the lad play each week and fill various roles where needed.

Great minds and all that..... I wonder if certain posters on here will berate Powell as much as they tried to denigrate me for such an audacious idea.

Where I agree that the lad should play every week I do disagree he should be used as a utility player. Start him as a centre next season with a plan to move him to stand off in the slightly longer term.

However, I am still tempted to have him as our starting stand off in 2012 after a lot of close season work. McGuire scrum half, Burrow still on bench.

Difference is, Ellis was already one of the best second rows in the competition when he signed for Leeds and had demonstrated utility value during his time at Wakefield by playing at six and in the centres.

Welham's not even the best all-round centre at his own club IMO. He gets on the end of some good work from others going forward, but is a total turnstile defensively.

Not the sort of player Leeds should be paying an undoubtedly substantial transfer fee for, given the options already at the club in his position.

To say we should drop Hardaker and replace him with Welham because of his defence is mental. Welham is awful defensively, absolutely appalling, He is decent but nothing special offensively. Welham is probably the worst front line centre defensively in SL, He should get nowhere near a Leeds side at all.

That's not true is it Andy. It's a million miles from true. When Leeds signed him, he hadn't just demonstrated his utility value he had played virtuatlly all season at centre and stand off. He had played very little time at second row in his first team appearances, so how you managed to judge him one of the best second rows I don't know.

Like I said, not for one minute suggesting Welham could be as big as Ellis, but looking at Ellis's progress on coming here, and the similarities with Welham from a development perspective, then it could quite easily potentially be a very good move for both parties.

Perhaps second row was a bad choice of words and back row might have been more accurate, given Ellis played only one less game at loose forward than he did at stand off in his final season at Wakefield.

Even playing at loose forward or stand off, he was used as a ball carrier rather than a pivot.

He played only two games at centre that season in Rounds 1 and 2.

Clearly, Leeds had identified him as a running back rower rather than a stand off or centre, given he made only one appearance at centre in his debut season.

I'd be underwhelmed, and would rather go with what we've got

Backrow is better, fair enough. But my point still remains. No disrespect to Wakey, but Ellis was a much better player on leaving here than when he arrived.

The similarities with him and Welham from a development point of view are very close IMO. Therefore I would look potentially at what Welham possibly could become at Leeds.

Would agree with the above

I think the reason you got criticism at the time was because you were trying to fix something that wasn't broken. We didn't need him at stand-off last season, and we also needed cover in the backs. It might be an option next season if we do sign Welham or any other centre, but otherwise leave him where he is rather than doing what would amount to turning him into a utility player like you say.

Nice to know that he has got such utility value though.

I'm sure Garry would be the first to acknowledge that his record is not 100% when it comes to signings, but will possibly be disappointed with the amount of negativity being displayed in some of the postings.

Keefy will be feeling vindicated!

I seem to remember things being very "broken" up until the late season GF run



In all seriousness I actually agree with the remainder of what you state

Sinfield, McGuire and Burrow will be around for some time. There's no reason to push Hardaker into the stand off role next year, injuries aside. I would have thought the Lee Smith experience shows that becoming a 'utility player' can be a quick route to averageness. IMO Hardaker should be picked as a centre, at least for next season (again injries aside). His route to stand off (if it ever happens) ought to follow - dare I say it? - that of a certain G. Schofield.

BTW I'm not sure why people assume Hardaker would just be 'thrown in' to centre with no coaching. Given the way he disappeared to the reserves for a while and came back looking quite a reasnable centre, I'd suggest the club is more than aware of the need to provide adequate coaching. But you learn on the job far more than you do in training.

As for Welham, comparisons to Ellis are dumb. Ellis was no longer a centre by the time Leeds signed him, was a full international and was wanted by any number of clubs. From what I've seen Welham can score tries and that's about it. He is no Schofield or Newlove - something Hardaker has the raw ability to become.

Also, re stand off, it may be that Briscoe Jr is the club's current choice as next in line.

Or Laurie Daley for another good example.

Your comments with regards to Ellis are bang on also.

An excellent point.

So often overlooked.

The kid has JUST (this week) turned 20. He's got raw talent and time on his side.

I imagine that with the right training by the time he's 25 he could be Super League's best in whatever position he ends up playing in, anywhere from 1-7.

I do think Hardaker will end up in the halves with Briscoe if their progressions goes as planned. Hardakers kicking game is fantastic

Has anything more been said about signing Ryan Brierley from Castleford?