Good post cheekydiddles.

I'm in no way writing this as a smug Bulls fan ( we don't exactly have a lot to be smug about) But i find it amazing how some Leeds fans still think they are THE dominant force of SL. It was an amazing achievement to win 3 titles on the bounce, but it can't last forever. Wigan, Warrington, Giants all upped their game. It didn't happen over night for them either. Plus Mcdermotts hasn't the luxury of been able to slash the cash about and he has had injuries to your two most influential players for most of the season. If Wigan had Tomkins and LeuLai out, where would they be? Whether you like it or not, Wigan, Warrington and Huddersfield all have better squads than you, and too may of your players are approaching the end of thier careers, and then the rest are just beginning theirs. Even if Tony Smith or someone like that came in, it would still take him 2-3 years to get Leeds back up to it.

Also some of your players need to shoulder a lot of the blame. Is Mcdermott slapping the ball down out of the oppoistion on the last tackle? Stupid actions like this aren't the coaches fault.

On another point i though Peacock was woeful last night. Incredibly slow getting of the tackles and i feel shouldn't be any where nead the England squad for the exiles game

But that didnt last for ever did it. And it wont last for ever with Wire.

For 2004 and 2005 we were wonderful, for 2006 woeful, 2007 poor up until a good end of season.

Smith is a good coach, but he isnt infallible and this is his third season at Wire, next season will be his 4th, which is as long as he has been at any club, i dont think he will be there for much longer, and if he is, they wont be able to keep up this level of performance (they are very very good at the moment, better than Wigan were last year imo)


As for our coach, wasting these next two years as transitional years would be the worst mistake we can make. The squad doesnt need a huge overhaul. This isnt 2001 and we cant spend the next three years aiming towards a 2014 challenge. We have some quality players, Sinfield, Mcguire, Buderus, JJB, JP, Kylie, Hall, are still a good enough spine to win things. Webb, Ablett, Burgess, Bailey, Smith, Ali are still good enough supporting players to win things, Watkins, BJB, Clarkson, Hardaker, and McShane are as good a youth players as anything else coming through in SL right now. We have the potential to win things and shouldnt give up the opportunity we have over the next 2/3 years for some possible challenge a couple of years down the line.

The squad doesnt need major surgery, it needs a good bit this offseason and it needs minor surgery over the 2 years after. But giving up on the next two years will take us from looking to replace Buderus, JP, Kylie, Ali and Senior, to starting to need to replace Mcguire, Burrow, Sinfield, Bailey, JJB, and all of a sudden we need another 2 years of transition and we are looking at 5/6 of not really challenging.

GH needs to make a decision at the end of this year (if not before) over whether he thinks BM is the man to take us forward and have us challenge next year and 2013 whilst at the same rebuilding the squad toward 2014.

If he does then he needs to back him 100%, if not then get rid and get someone over from Australia.

A couple of points/questions;
1, Why did GH not make more effort to keep TS? (pre GB/England, afterall as good a coach as Bluey was, he was working with the majority of TS squad & winning mentallity.

2, Having recently watched 2008 GF again, at the winning celebrations, the joy on Nick Scruton's face was pure LEEDS!. Ok maybe he asked for too much money, but he is a far better forward IMO (when not injured) than some that we have kept on or signed.

3, We seem to keep players well past there sell by dates and don't seem to recrute with much thought for team balance & squad needs.

4, If you look at the quality of the Huddersfield squad, they seem to have quite a few cast off's from other teams but now seem to gel superbly, why didn't we go for Dale Ferguson? a very good forward IMO. Also Larne Patrick would give any of our forwards a good run...

and finally 5, how do Wigan & Warrington manage to stay under the cap?
just a thought.

I am thoroughly enjoying the Tony Smith love-in. Would all those posters on here extolling his virtues care to remind us what they posted about him 2006-2007 whilst he [iwas[/i Leeds coach?

Hypocrites.

Luckily some us us recognised his genius at the time.

Anyway, Whilst not wanting to rush to a knee jerk reaction on the back of a defeat to what is clearly the best team in the competition, right now, I must say McDermott's decisions and team selection last night were baffling and ham-string us before a ball was kicked.

McGuire is a better scrum half than Burrow eh?

he is a top class coach but that is partly because he learnt from the mistakes, and there were plenty, when he was at leeds.the best coaches do this.
he is a far better coach now then he was then.
2004 he was magnificent, the rest were hit and miss

Leeds underachieved for the best part of 3 seasons under Tony Smith... 2005, 2006 and most of 2007. Only after he'd announced he was going did Leeds form pick up at the business-end of the season. It was definitely time for him to depart.

He was an unmitigated disaster as coach of England as he presided over the most embarrassing tour to Australia and NZ ever!

By SL standards he's a good coach but not a great one.

By NRL standards, he'd struggle to get a gig as water carrier.

TBH Larne Patrick probably feels he is currently at a better club than Leeds, no disrespect, as for Ferguson originally we were both after Hauraki and he chose Leeds over Giants again probably thought he was going to the better club? This allowed us to then go for Fergy as you guys probably felt had enough backrowers, I feel we got the better of the two from what I have seen so far.

BMD will stay until the end of the season, but unless we see a massive upturn in virtually all apects of our play in the next month, he should be looking for another job for next year. He's had a chance with enough fit players now to show us he can coach consistently good performances out of the players we have, but he's failed.

Changing coach mid season is very rarely a good thing, and we should only be doing this if the right man is available. Lowes on the other hand can go now...

Compare Wigans' squad with Wires', compare Wires' with any other, it stands out a mile for me. Unless they have a life long ambition to play in front of the esteemed Warrington public or are willing to sacrifice salary to be coached by Tony Smith.

Burrow is a better hooker than McShane?

I feel at this point we have just won 6 games on the bounce before the Warrington game, and it seems after every loss there is a thread about McDermott leaving. If we have a poor finish at the end of the season then fair enough, it may be time to look for a new Head Coach with more experience, and have McDermott and Lowes as understudies.
The squad new a revamp as some of the players are either well past it or just not good enough for our team. We have some talented youngsters coming through (McShane, Watkins, Ward etc). Today also the u16s beat Wakey 76-6. We need to sign 2-3 maybe 4 players, we need a new experienced quality centre, a quality prop, a young half back and maybe a second rower. We need to get rid of the deadwood in the squad, that add nothing to us week in week out, and we do have a few players that would be good for a squad further down the league, and not a team that are pushing for GF glory at the end of the season, Unfortunatley players like Hauraki and Cross fall into this category, i feel we only signed them as a last resort because Beast and Disko left at the end of last season. We need to get into the market straight away, so now, and look at the likes of Matt Cooper and Antonio Kaufusi, both are quality, yes Cooper may be a bit old, but we can slot Aston Wilson in, if he is ready when Cooper retires, or sign a player of that quality. Kaufusi is a no nonsense prop, and alongside JP and Leuluao would be a good player to have off the bench or starting. I think we are otherwise covered in the prop position with Ambler and Amor, both who are making big impressions at their current loan clubs, from all accounts especially Amor, who a number of times has been commented on, on TV for his commitment, and forward thinking rugby. A new second rower is needed in case Kirke leaves, and a young and decent half back to be backup for our current half backs, if Buderus leaves i would try and sign Chase, and maybe play Burrow on the bench or starting as a hooker, but not too sure how good he would be as a hooker. Personally hope Buderus plays for a season, with McShane and Hood stepping in, in 2013. We will probably be letting the likes of Kirke, Bailey, Ali and Webb go to allow younger players to develop, with Pitts coming in for Kirke, Amor/Ambler for Bailey, and Jones Bishop comes in for Webb. I expect Senior and Cross to leave/retire, because Senior i think is past it now, but he has been a great servant to our club, and Cross hasn't added much to our team since joining, and McDermott seems to refuse to select him, since the Cas game which i thought was his best game for us.
Enough of the squad, back to the coaching system, i think if we don't get top 4 maybe 5 finish at the end of the season, then we may need to bring in another head coach, with someone like Ricky Stuart coming in to add the experience to the coaching lineup. I hope Lowes and McDermott stay, but as Assistant coaches, as i believe the latter especially has a lot to learn, because we haven't really been good enough this season. We have picked up some form, but it hasn't yet been good enough for me.
Having said all this, for me the future is bright, with the likes of Jones Bishop, Pitts, Watkins, McShane, Ambler, Amor, Ward, Stewart, Hood, Singleton and Hardaker (who is really impressing me), we have a lot of good potential outside our 17, so i am not worrying in that department, but the present for me is a bit concerning, and at the end of the season needs to be sorted, this now needs to be the turn around for our squad, and the start of a new era of Leeds Rhinos, and hopefully a successful era!!

I agree with some of Cheeky diddles comments - but think that Kirke (on his current form) needs to be kept for a further year - but is puzzled by some of macca's (in macca we believe) 's squad selections - last night Biffa & Cross would have been crucial but neither were picked despite not having any injuries!!! - why?

Nope but whoever, besides our coach, said he was? On the other hand there have been plenty of cries for McGuire to play 7 ahead of Burrow. That happened. Oops.

The way I see it was that McD didn't think the McGuire could manage a full 80 minutes so sacrificed a bench spot with Burrow as a 'back up plan' because I really can't believe that his rotational hooker option would have involved the wee man.

I thought in 2007 Kirke was pretty good especially in the play offs & GF. Then I think his form and confidence dropped, and quite a lot were calling to get rid. But this season at prop I think he's gone well and if he could raise that extra 5 - 10% he would be very good.

BTW I still watch the DVD of 07 GF and always rewind and watch again when he smashed Mike Bennett.

....What a load of nonsense.....Compare your own Leeds squad with Wire's and you could easily match them up, salary for salary....similar with Wigan's.

Quite simply, there is jealousy at work over the fact that we are getting value for money from our squad that you lot at Headingley are struggling to acheive.

I didn't I thought Burrow all along would play at 9 with no McShane.Surely it would have made more sense to play McGuire at 6 Burrow at 7 Sinfield 13.

It would but when did common sense come into it?

Agree you did get the best deal and dodged a bullet in hauraki.

I am also getting sick of the supporters defending BMD by saying that he has inherited an aging side! Burgess, Watkins, Kirke, Clarkson, Jones-Bishop, McShane, Hardaker etc are plenty young enough to bolster an older side.

He has inherited a side which probably did have some players retained too long. 2 poor signings in cross and hauraki ( not sure how much involvement he had).

But he had more than enough young quality players to make a go of it

Thats the problem with ageing players,

As time goes on who are going to be replaced in the big guys shoes such as peacock,graham, Morley,fielden.

from different clubs and this will dent internationally aswel not just club level.

Its a massive thing to get young and upcoming players through the ranks,this means giving them more time on the pitch and taking risks as a team!

aparantly Moz wanted to come back to Leeds after the Roosters but someone (GH?) thought he wasn't worth a 4 year deal???? The mind boggles.

Thing is I was well p*ssed off at the time when Hauraki chose Leeds over the Giants, he was very good at Crusaders so not sure what's gone wrong but he seems to have gone backwards?
There is a good player in there somewhere

He just doesn't seem to have settled and his defence has been woefull overall maybe if he produces more try saving tackles like he produced on Morley his confidence will grow and we'll get a decent player out of him.