Quote ="tvoc"No need to go back further than yesterday for proof of that - unless getting beat by a comfortable margin is evidence of 'a tricky one.' viewtopic.php?f=17&t=573053&tsmp=1408196414&start=15'" Indeed. I expected Wakefield to put up a fight for a top 8 spot. But getting a prediction wrong for one game is not quite as bad as for getting a prediction wrong for two whole seasons (or more). You may like to look up your spreadsheets to remind us of which honours we actually challenged for since the time you shared your expert opinion with us (see below) and in which of those challenges did we suceed. 2011 tvoc posted "The example of Maguire merely shows the value of getting the number one appointment in the club (playing wise) correct. Leeds are showing what can happen if you get it completely wrong. It could take several years (or more) before we see Leeds challenging for honours again. Not all of that is down to one poor coaching appointment but it plays a highly significant part."

Quote ="tvoc"No need to go back further than yesterday for proof of that - unless getting beat by a comfortable margin is evidence of 'a tricky one.' viewtopic.php?f=17&t=573053&tsmp=1408196414&start=15'" Indeed. I expected Wakefield to put up a fight for a top 8 spot. But getting a prediction wrong for one game is not quite as bad as for getting a prediction wrong for two whole seasons (or more). You may like to look up your spreadsheets to remind us of which honours we actually challenged for since the time you shared your expert opinion with us (see below) and in which of those challenges did we suceed. 2011 tvoc posted "The example of Maguire merely shows the value of getting the number one appointment in the club (playing wise) correct. Leeds are showing what can happen if you get it completely wrong. It could take several years (or more) before we see Leeds challenging for honours again. Not all of that is down to one poor coaching appointment but it plays a highly significant part."

I only defend him against negative nonsense - an example of which you have kindly just provided

I predicted a St Helens win last night.

_____

Do you not think Maguire was the catalyst in the change of fortunes at Wigan?

I perhaps was guilty at the time of underestimating an outstanding core group of players and their ability to rise above the mediocrity that passes for the regular rounds under the flawed (and soon to be dumped) format.

The throughput of outstanding juniors at Wigan since Maguire's comparitively brief spell there is, I think, highly impressive with the move up apparently seamless - the throughput at Headingley under the McDermott's is much less so and the transition appears difficult as the 1st grade relies heavily on individual plays. When a vacancy was created recently in the Bradford game McDermott filled it with second rowers while Ash Handley (Ryan Hall Mk II) dominated the Academy game.

This core group won't always be here and the McDermott legacy is still to come.

This thread



Keep predicting Leeds downfall folks, you'll get it right one year and then you can all say you told us so

Yeah me and Juan on the same wavelength is like The Hell's Angels it's that much "a gang" haha.

That coming from the king of chipping into a argument started by Gotcha or Tvoc like the little lackey you continuously end up looking like is truely the most pitiful thing here. It's about time you recognised this.

When i look as stupid as you i will begin to worry - you jump on any bandwagon you can when it comes to certain posters on here!!This thread is a perfect example of this, you need somebody else to stand behind because in reality you are just a scared little boy. Now run along and come back when you have grown up a little.

I agree that Maguire's reign seems to have been as you say, most especially on the matter of fitness/conditioning & on their tackle tecnique that rely heavily on the Craig Bellamy style of wrestling the ball carrier, holding him up then a third or fourth defender coming in & hitting the tackler below the knee.
A tactic I abhor & which has been recognised as dangerous, in the NRL at least by outlawing it.
Wigan still do this from time to time - it lead I believe to Salter's injury on Thursday for instance.
I do not agree that Maguire was responsible (as you imply) for the junior development, that I think was due for more to the influence of Dean Bell (as it was here at Leeds) & those academy staff who have followed him.

Hardaker
Briscoe Watkins Handley Hall
White Sutcliffe
Singleton Aiton Bailey
Achurch Ward
Walters

Minchella Golding Kirke Clarkson

Will be interesting to see how Sutcliffe goes. Today he's the 'experienced' member of the halfbacks so hopefully really takes the control out there as too often he seems to take a back seat when he's been partnered by Sinfield or McGuire.

for me he's a far better 13 than 6

Well done you must be so pleased with yourself.




"perhaps"!!! indicates that perhaps you did not underestimated the players. Either way you were wrong but you just cannot bring yourself to admit that you were so wrong. Lets us remind ourselves of what you posted in 2011



...and now "perhaps" you can my answer which you have avoided which was:

"But getting a prediction wrong for one game is not quite as bad as for getting a prediction wrong for two whole seasons (or more). You may like to look up your spreadsheets to remind us of which honours we actually challenged for since the time you shared your expert opinion with us (see below) and in which of those challenges did we succeed?"




I do not think that Maguire's comparatively brief spell had anything to do with the already successful and ongoing junior development set up at Wigan. To award him accolades for this and to attempt to denigrate Brian McDermott by implying poor development transition at Leeds is a cheap shot and a failure to understand how rugby clubs operate.

Maguire was certainly a catalyst for change not only at Wigan but throughout the SL. He brought with him the tactic of slowing down the PTB with a 4th tackler flopping on the already tackled player. A ploy that now pervades the entire league with negativity another reason for some of the mediocrity you mentioned. Maguire also brought a more slick and structured use of the dummy runner or blocker or let us call it what it is obstruction.

While ever this "outstanding core group of players" maintain their places at Leeds our game style will still rely "heavily on individual plays" and something which I hope will continue with their replacements as I much prefer to watch traditional rugby skills than gridiron football.

My understanding of the Bradford selections was that Handley was down to play but failed to turn up in time and a late team change had to be made.

I notice that you now regard the SL as "flawed" in much the same way as you now choose to deride the OPTA stats which for so long happily filled your postings. You must be devastated to have spent so much time copying and collating records of the "flawed (and soon to be dumped) format"

Brian McDermott has already established a better legacy than any rival SL coach during the time since his appointment as first team coach at Leeds. 2 Championships, a WCC and 3 Cup final appearances despite the fact that the outstanding core players are well past their best.

Correct. He does seem to coast in games, so hopefully he will stamp his authority and take his chance by the scruff of the neck.

The turnaround at Wigan is more to do with Ian Lenagan taking over at the end of 2007. It took him a couple of seasons to get things into order and reaps the rewards. Maguire was a right man at the right time. For all that talk of Wigan youngsters.....only 3 players that made their debuts under Maguire from the academy are still at Wigan, Charnley, Farrell and Hughes (and the latter isn't exactly a key figure there).

Much like Tony Smith here, Maguire came at just the right time. Just when Sam Tomkins was ready to become a star and with the Melbourne Storm guys coming over to add to the squad. Add also the timing of Leeds and Saints having to go through varying transitions after dominating the 2007-2009 period and not exactly being at their best during the Maguire years (even though we both still got to the 2011 GF) then it all came along nicely for him.

Even in Wigan's GF success of 2013 only 4 players from the 17 came from the academy post Maguire's hiring, the 3 aforementioned ones plus Dom Crosby. You could perhaps say a 5th in Thornley who was part of Wigan's academy but went to Sale for a while in RU.

Noble pretty much put most of that team together, taking them from relegation to the brink of the grand final (they lost 3 gf semi's on the trot under noble). Maguire came in and added the finishing touches. Their nrl structured attack and tackling ''technique'' and control of the ruck. They've not really lost any of that since, but they've lost alot of stars. That 2010 team was pretty tasty. If you look at the players they've lost since then......

Leneghan has done a real remarkable job with recruitment since then. They had a completly new halfback pairing last season and won the double. The signing of smith and green was extremley clever, probably the best halfback pairing in the league and on a budget wage I imagine.

Leeds leading 24-8 - almost half time

Golding might get on in 2nd half to rest Hardaker

Really, what posters do I continuously stand behind or jump on their bandwagon? Can you list some proper examples or are you just reaching? Please don't tell me that that one single post jokingly saying "you've just got served" is all you have, that would be pathetic.

I admit I get into some arguments on here but they come off me standing my ground in an argument of my own accord and not the chipping in you do in support of others. In rugby terms you're like the constant 3rd man into the tackle lending his weight but never the first guy in. Even with my run-ins with the likes of Gotcha I can respect him because he makes his points and stands his ground honestly and isn't afraid to argue his case......you on the other hand just chime in on the back of others debates with repeated regularity and no one on this board is a better example of hiding behind other posters than yourself, it's actually cringeworthy how much you do it and seemingly don't realise.

Wigan have always produced quality juniors - before Bell, with Bell and since Bell.

What Maguire introduced was structute on the field and a no excuses culture. Importantly that structure is replicated throughout the grades within the club so when juniors are introduced to the 1st grade they know their role. That transition appears seamless, very few look out of their depth, unknowns become reliable squad members within a matter of a couple of outings.

Does this happen at Leeds?

No, but it doesn't happen at Wigan either. The first team at Wigan doesnt play the same way as the u19's. They also have brought players in from outside in most of the key positions. It's much easier for a second row to slot in to a first team than a half back.
Also these reliable squad members after a couple of outings also put in poor performances over the season. Losing to Bradford and only drawing with Hull KR for instance.

So not down to Maguire then?

We've never played the same type of structured game IMV so not a criticism that should be laid solely at McDermott's feet.

Since 2004, I would argue that our results overall, despite that lack, have been better than Wigan.
Would I like to see more structure in our play? Yes, but that's been true for a long time. The issue is that we have got away with it due the outstanding ability of a few key individual players, that era may be due to end soon.
Hence why I believe that now we need to appoint an assistant coach full-time.
On that I'm sure we can both agree.
To do otherwise is false economy.

I don't want to see more structure in our play. I think we have enough as it is. Just because we aren't doing the same play over and over again like Wigan do doesn't mean we don't play with structures.

What I want to see is 2 extra props at Leeds as we only have 2 and a young lad at the moment.

I agree with you. I too do not want to see more structure if it is the sort of boring obstruction moves and laying on in the ruck. The attraction of rugby for me is to see the individual talents of the likes of Watkins and Burrow. In the more structured set up you can get away with 2nd rowers in the centres as it is all about power and painting by numbers.

As you say Leeds do play within certain structures or frameworks for both defence and attack. In attack we allow the players more individual freedom than some because we have players with individual skills. However all structures only work when the players are on form and have the timing perfect. I am sure if you watched Wigan week in week out you would see that they too have plenty of off days.

I wonder if by structure people mean a bit more attacking idea near to the opponent's line.
I do.
Our play is to my untutored eye too much off the cuff but we've not done too badly playing like that for the past few years.
But as I said earlier, that's great with players of the calibre we've had, can we continue to be successful when those players retire?

You took it pretty hard when your failings were exposed - or have you forgotten that? My point was simply that those that live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.

Unlike you I don't feel the need to ram my opinion down everyone's throat on every opportunity - do you suffer from some confidence issues that mean you crave attention all the time?

I argue my case where I feel it is appropriate or where I feel strongly enough to justify the time to write a detailed post. This isn't very often, life is far too short to obsess about a form of entertainment - which let's face it is all rugby is, it isn't life and death. For me its quality over quantity!!

Part of the fun is winding you up - which is really easy - doesn't take much of a poke for your true colours to come out. Just read back over this thread and you will see what I mean. As the saying goes the word is mightier than the sword something you could take on board.

Did I? I toyed with tvoc to see what the motives of his childish challenge was......had he not done that I would've comfortably and straight forwardly admitted/altered/discussed the correct stats.....when someone challenges you to leave the board forever you can't help but be intrigued by their motives, even when they start to back peddle.



Not really and how could I? Even thought the original debate on that thread was with Gotcha and then one with Tvoc, YOU still constantly bring it up (even though it started back in January) like the faithful little lackey you are





Yes me effectively lol-ing at some quotes from 2011 showing discrepancies in someone's views is the same as incorrect stats which I admitted to.....well it is only to someone as desperate as yourself lol



F**k you're right. I come onto a message board and give my opinion, clearly something wrong with me. I'm also guilty of such crimes of going to a supermarket AND BUYING FOOD. It doesn't stop there, when I go to a cinema.....would you believe it....hold onto your hats here......I watch a film.....it's a radical way to live life I admit.



You're quite right, rugby isn't life or death which is why I point out how foolish I think it is when people go OTT in reactions to poor performances/results. I get screams of "our hard earned cash" and "stop defending the club/team/coach"



Awwww dear, if you're going to play the "just winding you up" card up you might not want to write down the issues you have with me earlier in your post, you know the glass house stone throwing, opinion enforcing, apparent confidence issues son of a gun I am,......kinda let's your excuse slip that it's "just a bit of fun".......still you know, nice try and all that



I believe Gotcha and Tvoc want a cup of tea so be a good boy and run along and put the kettle on