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| Quote ="Andy Gilder"The result and the margin of defeat isn't solely attributable to Lee Smith.
Plodding across field to collect kicks, then returning them back at half speed before hitting the first defender and falling over however is entirely down to Lee Smith.
Playing well in such an isolated position often gets you more praise than you maybe deserve The flipside is that when you play badly, it sticks out like a sore thumb.
For someone with a point to prove, his effort, application and enthusiasm were far more disappointing than any technical flaws in his game.'"
That echoes my view too. It was very disappointing from Smith and I can't see a way back for him really unless there are long term injuries in 1-5, but even then you would have to say Chisholm deserves a chance next. I don't quite know what's wrong with Smith to be honest. He's obviously lost a lot of pace but hasn't replaced that with strength and defensive solidarity. He's probably now at least 3rd choice in all positions he would play.
I'd have all of these:
FB - Webb & BJB
W- Hall, BJB, Hardaker, Watkins, Chisholm
Centre - Watkins, Hardaker, Ablett, Delaney
Hooker - McShane, Hood, Burrow, Sinfield
before Smith. I just don't see where he fits in now and would expect to see him leave at the end of the season.
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| Quote ="Gotcha"Burrow has proven over last 12 months he isn't a contender for the starting scrum half role. It didn't stop the club putting him there, and doesn't stop some posters defending him on every occassion.'"
Out of interest, what other options do you think were available once McGuire injured himself in training and it was apparent Webb wasn't going to be available?
Ward? McShane? Hood? Olds?
As poor an option as Burrow might have been at scrum half in your opinion, he's still significantly better than any of those in mine.
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| Quote ="Gotcha"All of them should have a point to prove in every game, simple as that, no matter who they are.'"
Put your little motivational book down and enter the real world.
Simple question Gotcha, who out of the 1-17 had more to prove? We all know the answer.
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| Quote ="Andy Gilder"Out of interest, what other options do you think were available once McGuire injured himself in training and it was apparent Webb wasn't going to be available?
Ward? McShane? Hood? Olds?
As poor an option as Burrow might have been at scrum half in your opinion, he's still significantly better than any of those in mine.'"
Not dissagreeing with you. And Smith on Sunday was the best option to replace the injured Webb at fullback. Unless all the ones critising had their crystal balls out before hand?
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| Quote ="thebloodbath"Put your little motivational book down and enter the real world.
Simple question Gotcha, who out of the 1-17 had more to prove? We all know the answer.'"
Do we? I would suggest you are making the answer up as your go along with the benefit of hindsight.
Kirke had a lot to prove, especially considering the comments he gets on here. McShane had a lot to prove, especially considering how highly Hood is thought of who replaced him. Clarkson had a lot to prove, especially considering an in form Pitts was dropped for him. Moore had a lot to prove, espcially considering the club originally got rid of him and this was one of his limited opportunities.
Sorry, but putting Smith down in a seperate category is rubbish. Players are and most certainly should be anyway, playing for thier places in the side. I would very much be willing to bet money, that had Smith put in the exact same performance in a Leeds result of beating Saints by the scoreline they beat us, that posters on here would have a very different view at this time.
Smith is just simply one of the those players that it is fine for to be the scapegoat.
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| Quote ="Gotcha"Quote ="thebloodbath"Put your little motivational book down and enter the real world.
Simple question Gotcha, who out of the 1-17 had more to prove? We all know the answer.'"
Do we? I would suggest you are making the answer up as your go along with the benefit of hindsight.
Kirke had a lot to prove, especially considering the comments he gets on here. McShane had a lot to prove, especially considering how highly Hood is thought of who replaced him. Clarkson had a lot to prove, especially considering an in form Pitts was dropped for him. Moore had a lot to prove, espcially considering the club originally got rid of him and this was one of his limited opportunities.
Sorry, but putting Smith down in a seperate category is rubbish. Players are and most certainly should be anyway, playing for thier places in the side. I would very much be willing to bet money, that had Smith put in the exact same performance in a Leeds result of beating Saints by the scoreline they beat us, that posters on here would have a very different view at this time.
Smith is just simply one of the those players that it is fine for to be the scapegoat.'"
I would say of that lot Smith had the most to prove.
I would also say that Kirke & Moore were two of the better players on Sunday. McShane has a point to prove, but is still learning his trade, same for Clarkson. Smith has been a first team member for a long time and is now out of the team mainly through his own lack of application. He should be trying to rectify that
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| Quote ="Gotcha"Do we? I would suggest you are making the answer up as your go along with the benefit of hindsight.
Kirke had a lot to prove, especially considering the comments he gets on here. McShane had a lot to prove, especially considering how highly Hood is thought of who replaced him. Clarkson had a lot to prove, especially considering an in form Pitts was dropped for him. Moore had a lot to prove, espcially considering the club originally got rid of him and this was one of his limited opportunities.
Sorry, but putting Smith down in a seperate category is rubbish. Players are and most certainly should be anyway, playing for thier places in the side. I would very much be willing to bet money, that had Smith put in the exact same performance in a Leeds result of beating Saints by the scoreline they beat us, that posters on here would have a very different view at this time.
Smith is just simply one of the those players that it is fine for to be the scapegoat.'"
Sorry, you seem to be side-stepping the point. Do you think Lee Smith had a point to prove or not? You have also conceeded he had a poor performance, which you had to because he did. He wasn't the only one of course, but I was discussing Lee Smiths contribution and it wasn't very good. Smith isn't the scapegoat, he didn't cost us the game. He was a sum of the parts.
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| Quote ="The Eagle"I would say of that lot Smith had the most to prove.
'"
Yup. he's up there of course.
But don't say that near Gotcha, a hissy fit awaits.
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| It seems to me that this whole thread is full of reaction. The obvious thing is that with the saints changes it was always on the cards.
regroup, take it as a reality check, come back stronger.
A few need to relax. It's march not September. It's nice we have looked better than last year but it doesn't really matter.
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| Quote ="sgtwilko"It seems to me that this whole thread is full of reaction. The obvious thing is that with the saints changes it was always on the cards.
regroup, take it as a reality check, come back stronger.
A few need to relax. It's march not September. It's nice we have looked better than last year [size=150but it doesn't really matter[/size.'"
A sad indictment (truly a day for sadness )......tell that to all of those that paid good money to watch that appaling lack of application
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| Quote ="The Eagle"I would say of that lot Smith had the most to prove.
I would also say that Kirke & Moore were two of the better players on Sunday. McShane has a point to prove, but is still learning his trade, same for Clarkson. Smith has been a first team member for a long time and is now out of the team mainly through his own lack of application. He should be trying to rectify that'"
Not so sure you can excuse McShane and Clarkson quite so easily....but otherwise a fair enough assessment.
I have always defended Smith and considered him a good FB in particular.....but oh dear. His best opportunity to stake his claim for some time....and he failed big time.
Hard to imagine not so long ago he was our regular RC and didn't do such a bad job against SL competition ( we'll conveniently forget his abilities up against Ingliss of course ).
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| There now needs to be a suitable reaction from the players and the coaching staff after what was a sub-standard, disrespectful performance both to their own fans and to a lesser extent St Helens - who I'd expect appreciated the welcome gift.
IMO, Tony Smith used a similar experience V St Helens in 2004 (mentioned on the hair-do thread) to galvanize the players and that paid dividends back then.
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| Quote ="nantwichexile"A sad indictment (truly a day for sadness
)......tell that to all of those that paid good money to watch that appaling lack of application'"
Anyone who knows the game can see a saints reaction was inevitable.
We were the unlucky ones. Says little about either team. that situation has been played out tons of times with similar results.
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| Quote ="sgtwilko"... it doesn't really matter.'"
Careful with statements like that, or ThePrinter will be on your case because the performances during the regular rounds in SL are really important and vital and everyone cares about them apart from me of course
Or perhaps not.
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| Quote ="thebloodbath"Sorry, you seem to be side-stepping the point. Do you think Lee Smith had a point to prove or not? You have also conceeded he had a poor performance, which you had to because he did. He wasn't the only one of course, but I was discussing Lee Smiths contribution and it wasn't very good. Smith isn't the scapegoat, he didn't cost us the game. He was a sum of the parts.'"
Sidestepping it? I have answered it very clearly, which is why you picked up on it in the first place. I think every player should be trying to prove something in every game, whether your name is Smith or something else.
I even gave you a further list of players especially who should have been trying to prove something with reasons. You however seem to think only one needs to prove something.
People have to remember here that Smith had the spot. He didn't lose it, he got injured. He is only just now fit again. Has BJB really done enough to warrant any different view from the coaching staff to what they had at the start of the season? I don't know personally so not giving an answer.
I just think it is typical of a high percentage of supporters that there has to be a scapegoat who gets the most critisism after a performance like that. And it is furthermore typical that to a select few other supporters that they do single out one individual when it happens, yet defend others to the hilt for performances that are even worse.
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| Quote ="Gotcha"People have to remember here that Smith had the spot. He didn't lose it, he got injured. He is only just now fit again. Has BJB really done enough to warrant any different view from the coaching staff to what they had at the start of the season? I don't know personally so not giving an answer.
'"
Why don't you offer an opinion? Judge on what you have seen, that's all you can.
I can - I would say BJB has impressed more than Smith on the wing so far this season. What's a deal-breaker for me is BJB's tight working bond with his centre (the ever impressive Watkins).
When you look at wingers you have to account for their link with their centre. I would be seriously concerned that Smith couldn't keep up with Watkins to get on the end of his supply. I mean that honestly, not tongue-in-cheek.
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| Quote ="thebloodbath"Why don't you offer an opinion? Judge on what you have seen, that's all you can.
I can - I would say BJB has impressed more than Smith on the wing so far this season. What's a deal-breaker for me is BJB's tight working bond with his centre (the ever impressive Watkins).
When you look at wingers you have to account for their link with their centre. I would be seriously concerned that Smith couldn't keep up with Watkins to get on the end of his supply. I mean that honestly, not tongue-in-cheek.'"
I'm not actually dissagreeing with you on any of that. I will however say that I still think out of Smith, BJB, Chisolm, even Hall, that Smith is the one who has that ability to create something out of nothing. At least I think he still has it, he's demonstrated it before.
Do I think Smith played well on Sunday? not at all. But again, I don't think Webb would have either, and Webb most certainly had miles worse games last year than Smith had on Sunday, and he did it on quite a few occassions. On that basis, I still see no reason why Smith is the one singled out from what was a poor performance from the majority of players.
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| I wouldn't worry about the result or performance too much, you got whacked by Saints at Widnes last season and it didn't turn out too badly for you in the end
Smith is still a decent player, I remember him hurting Saints on many occasions in the past. He just needs a bit of support and you'll get that player back. He looked knackered at times against us and seemed to find it really hard going. Maybe he finds it hard to motivate himself now he's just a squad player
Watkins looks like a world-beater, every time he gets the ball you expect something special. I'm looking forward to watching him over the next ten years if he stays in league
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| Quote ="TheOtherOne"I wouldn't worry about the result or performance too much, you got whacked by Saints at Widnes last season and it didn't turn out too badly for you in the end
Smith is still a decent player, I remember him hurting Saints on many occasions in the past. He just needs a bit of support and you'll get that player back. He looked knackered at times against us and seemed to find it really hard going. Maybe he finds it hard to motivate himself now he's just a squad player
Watkins looks like a world-beater, every time he gets the ball you expect something special. I'm looking forward to watching him over the next ten years if he stays in league'"
See you at the GF (maybe we'll let you win this time IF you let us take the CC: fancy a trip to Wembley this year instead of OT yet again)
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| gotcha, BJB is years ahead of smith at full back and winger. in fact he has looked so good on the wing i'd be tempted to bring in a top class fullback, if one is available, next season
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| I think there are a few players in the 17 from last Sunday that have nothing to prove to anybody. But they do regularly and will do so again.
Smith isn't one of them. Regardless of getting involved with semantics with Gotcha it's clear to me Smith is miles behind 1-5 shirt numbers in terms of talent and application at the moment. The next person in line for a shirt if someone is needed for the threequarters should be Chisolm IMO. I've seen what I need from Smith and not just from Sunday.
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| Albeit i've seen very little of him the finished of Chisholms tries have looked very good and we all know he doesn't lack pace. I would look at putting BJB to fullback and Chisholm on the wing until Webb gets back.
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| Quote ="RossRhino"Mcshane certainly didn't do himself any favour. His defence was poor and his missed tackle count I can only imagine will be high'"
Quote ="Teddy Picker"Not going to write anyone completely off after a game against a Saints team which played very well but McShane was very poor defensively.
I started to feel sorry for Smith, Webb would have had a tough time in that game, but he just looked so lethargic when a kick went in, and he was a million miles off offering what Webb gives us in attack.
We needed to get into the Saints pack early doors but the penalty off the first play just summed it all up.
Sinfield and Burrow took some really poor last tackle options.
End of the day lets look forward to Hudds who should give us a really good game and look to bounce back.
Oh, and Kirke put a few good runs in!'"
Interesting you say that because i was just checking out the Super League website:
[url=http://www.superleague.co.uk/statistics_player?hs1=2012&hp1=2805&hs2=2012&hp2=279&stat=tries&season=2012McShane vs Burrow[/url
In 3 games less than Burrow with limited game time McShane has completed just 8 tackles less than Burrow and also missed one fewer tackle.
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| I've been away a year, I come back and it's the same old folk bickering. Love it.
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