The Guardian's take on the current position: www.guardian.co.uk/sport/blog/20 ... gby-league Re physical fitness, I'm sure that I read somewhere that the Aussie sides are back in training from now even though their season does not start until some weeks after ours. Whereas the Rhinos for instance are not due back until mid-November with a start to our season on Feb 12th. So every year the Aussies have an additional 6 weeks or so conditioning & training time compared to our players. That must have the effect of increasing the gap between us & our antipodean rivals. We need to play less games IMV to be able ever to compete consistently internationally. That won't happen so the downward spiral will continue.

The Guardian's take on the current position: www.guardian.co.uk/sport/blog/20 ... gby-league Re physical fitness, I'm sure that I read somewhere that the Aussie sides are back in training from now even though their season does not start until some weeks after ours. Whereas the Rhinos for instance are not due back until mid-November with a start to our season on Feb 12th. So every year the Aussies have an additional 6 weeks or so conditioning & training time compared to our players. That must have the effect of increasing the gap between us & our antipodean rivals. We need to play less games IMV to be able ever to compete consistently internationally. That won't happen so the downward spiral will continue.

Previous wins were null and void

In that case all our losses are null and void be because they were before we were supplying the NRL with some high quality players and competing at such a level week in week out.

Of course, you could just show me the difference in number of NZers playing in the NRL between 2006 and 2010.

The Kiwis have the same problem with the lack of depth that we do. So it's going to be next time we have more of our first choice players fit and healthy than they do, really.

Aside from some poor games between poor sides, I disagree entirely.
Compare our product to the other like products. I was dragged along to a PRU game this week (free ticket and chance to meet some parents of players I coach) and the standard was poor. Slow, error strewn, disorganised. Lets not even start on soccer


Our club level game is typically high effort, high skill level, high speed. Don't let a couple of end of season results convince you otherwise.

Quote ="Old Feller"The Guardian's take on the current position: www.guardian.co.uk/sport/blog/20 ... gby-league Re physical fitness, I'm sure that I read somewhere that the Aussie sides are back in training from now even though their season does not start until some weeks after ours. Whereas the Rhinos for instance are not due back until mid-November with a start to our season on Feb 12th. So every year the Aussies have an additional 6 weeks or so conditioning & training time compared to our players. That must have the effect of increasing the gap between us & our antipodean rivals. We need to play less games IMV to be able ever to compete consistently internationally. That won't happen so the downward spiral will continue.'" That's part of the problem - their offseason, when the serious strength, speed and skill work can be done, is twice as long as ours. We could play less games, but that means less money in the sport, meaning lower wages, less attraction to players, and less money to spend on marketing and community coaching.

Quote ="Old Feller"The Guardian's take on the current position: www.guardian.co.uk/sport/blog/20 ... gby-league Re physical fitness, I'm sure that I read somewhere that the Aussie sides are back in training from now even though their season does not start until some weeks after ours. Whereas the Rhinos for instance are not due back until mid-November with a start to our season on Feb 12th. So every year the Aussies have an additional 6 weeks or so conditioning & training time compared to our players. That must have the effect of increasing the gap between us & our antipodean rivals. We need to play less games IMV to be able ever to compete consistently internationally. That won't happen so the downward spiral will continue.'" That's part of the problem - their offseason, when the serious strength, speed and skill work can be done, is twice as long as ours. We could play less games, but that means less money in the sport, meaning lower wages, less attraction to players, and less money to spend on marketing and community coaching.

I had a conversation with Jason Cayless at the Tri-Nations in 2006, when he was playing for Saints.

He said the single biggest difference between the games on either side of the globe was the length of the pre-season and season. He was adamant that if they were comparable to the NRL in England then we would be far, far closer to the Aussies.

We start our seasons less fit and end them more tired as a result of more games and a worse pre-season. Not a good combination. He said he felt a long way behind his NRL teammates in terms of basic conditioning.

So cut Superleague to 10 competitive teams (are there 10 competitive teams?) or Have a Yorkshire league and Lancashire league with playoffs between the top 4 of each at the end of the season?

Increases intensity of the comp but how to replace the lost Sky money and turnstile income?

Have some kind of reward for England / GB qualified players in the team, salary cap increase perhaps?

I don't think the selection of them is to do with the supporters applauding them though, more to do with who sky sports flavour of the season is, and who's won what player trophy. Which is a shame.

The real shame of it is that if we could get 60,000 turning out to internationals on a regular basis, then we would be able to reduce the number of club fixtures. However, I don't believe we're going to get to that, even if we were to start beating Australia on a regular basis.
I think it's going to have to be just a gradual reduction in regular league fixtures. That can be done within our current structure - you just start having teams you only play once a season rather than home and away.

I stand corrected, I was neglecting the 2007 white wash! I take your argument, but I think we see a different kind of team from New Zealand, certainly in comparison to the mid 90s. and don't really see us making any discernable progress on them.

I was discounting him due to being 'Scottish'. But I agree he is a good tactical kicker.

Agree he is a good kicker but never when it matters. He seems to me to be a bit like leon price. Get a big tackle in early doors and he doesn't want to know

Riley on the BBC website also suggested more Brits going to the NRL as well, subsidised by clubs. I can't see that happening at all with established players. I wouldn't want to force anyone to do it, doubt the ego (or to be fair wallet) of someone like Tomkins would accept it, and would rather the best players simply had a bash themselves as per Ellis et al.

I would like to see juniors go to Australia. Not to get them first team games but to get experience of the training and play at reserve grade in Australia. Some people have dissed Widdop, but he didn't look as bad as some of established SL players, and I suspect his equivalent in SL (a good prospect who's played a handful of games) would have looked laughably out of their depth. I would bet any money that Hardacre would benefit vastly more from being sent to Australia for a year than he will playing for Featherstone or (shudder) our Academy.

I absolutely appreciate what you're saying and it all sounds great in principle. In practice however, after the likes of Hardaker and other young lads get a taste of life down under, do you think they would all want to come back ? The good ones, especially if they're good enough for the NRL, would be enticed to stay on ....thus further debilitating our limited pool of talent.

How much of it do people think is to do with the respective Country's attitude in general??

I mean, Australia & New Zealand are sports mad. It's in their blood, it's in-bedded into the bedrock of society. Sport goes on the front page not the back. If their best player sleeps with a prostitute the week before a big game they do everything in their power to keep it OUT of the papers so as not to effect the performance. Winning is everything to the Aussies and as much as we try and play along (with the Ashes, and RU & RL etc) the truth is, they take it far, FAR more seriously than we do.

There's also an incredible lack of patriotism in this country (myself included). All we do (and I'm generalising here I know but it's making the point) is moan about the government, or the weather, or immigration, or youth gangs outside the Co-op, or nobody having a pension when they get to 65, or petrol prices, or the overall "standard" of the whole country gradually declining, mucky hospitals, bumpy roads, queuing, no jobs, no money, dark nights. The list goes on and on and on.

My point is, we're not really (as a nation) "proud" of our country. We're the first people to highlight our faults. The Americans or Australians or Germans or Spanish (again... I know I'm generalising here but I'm sure you know what I mean) are proud of their countries. They sing the anthem at the top of their lungs. They "woop and holler" when the President walks past, they're not worried about displaying flags in case they offend someone. How many English students would turn up to a Pep Rally?! and if they did turn up... how many of them would "get into it" as much as our American cousins? Sometimes I think it's possible to be "too polite". Both America & Australia have a national "day" (4th July/Australia Day), the whole country shuts down, and everybody celebrates being American/Australian. No worry of offending people, if somebody has chosen to live there, then clearly they can celebrate too as they've chosen to live in one of those countries. No being "too polite", just... "We're having a day, if you don't want to celebrate, that's fine, but the shops will be shut!". It says a lot about English culture when St. Patrick's Day is celebrated more by the English than St. George's Day is.

We have many plus points in our country, but our unequivocal, indisputable, "what ever happens I'm sticking by my country" patriotism is clearly not one of them.

Of course there are exceptions, and I get that, I just wonder how much an Englishman's attitude to life and England in general has a negative effect when we compete at anything (especially sport) on the world stage.

People have been saying that kind of stuff about this country for over hundreds of years believe it or not. I always think it's a positive sign that we don't go OTT wrapping ourselves in a flag. It's only those who have insecurities that seem to want to.

I would agree. I like the fact we're not self-indulgent, flag hugging idiots.

That wasn't my point though. My point was, whether you like the fact that's how we are or not, do you think it could be something to do with the reason we're not as competitive on the world stage?

What I'm saying is we can't have it both ways. Either... we're polite, and reserved, and not in-your-face, and thus lose at sport. Or we're loud, "wooping and hollering" idiots, that breed generation after generation of winners.

In my opinion it isn't the "wooping and hollering" that is the problem it is things like EU laws and Political correctness. Both aus and us have none of this, we tell our kids it not about winning at school, no winners prizes at sports day, everyone wins for trying.
The whole attitude is wrong since when had wanting to win been a bad thing?
We do just pander to people at my friends work someone had apparantly complained wearing a poppy they found it a bit racist, like some of the staff wearing a England football shirt on sport relief day at his work was also complained as being potentially racist.

Of course, England's failure to compete with Australia and New Zealand is entirely down to the curvature of bananas and not being able to call someone a Paki any more.

What a fine, eloquent point you make.

I kind of agree. We have lost what it is to be English. And no this does not mean bendy bananas and racial slur words. Americans celebrate their national identity without the need for use of any derogatory words

Oh aye, the Deep South is well known for its celebration of the cultural diversity that makes the USA what it is.

Still not entirely sure how the supposed loss of a set of completely unquantifiable traits means it's harder to learn how to pass a ball or tackle properly mind...

Ferdy just seems like a harmless kid (hope I'm right)...not sure what localsuperhero's excuse might be,

I was interrupted whilst at work. Kinda rushed my response and lost train of thought. Damn me for being so professional!?!

What I was saying is (I think) that we are diluting our passion as a nation by pandering to so many outside influences. We struggle and are sometimes afraid to be proudly 'English' in case we are thought of as a bigotted lout, this in turn can lead to apathy over national pride.

Oh and if you read my post I never mention anything about the current issues in Rugby League, was just identifying with Ferdy's point that we don't get behind our international sportsmen in the same way other countries do and we accept a gentlemanly 'taking part is good enough' attitude.

As for the Deep South comment, you brought up the use of the word 'Paki' as one of your traits of being English lost to political correctness. This has nothing to do with patriotism, which can be celebrated, as in America, without any sort of racism.

As for the problems in Rugby League, there is no quick fix. The basics, i.e. kicking, passing, running, tackling, etc., need to be taught to a good level at grass roots, before the kids are even anywhere near the NRL. This starts with better input into schools. Rugby Union appears to give kids good basics and in the past Rugby League has been lucky enough to poach a few of them, many of the best outside backs in our sport have come through the early years in Rugby Union, Offiah, Devereux, even Senior. These Rugby Union imports have dried up due to professionalism and the money available in that code and we are now seeing trade going the other way with our better talents earmarked for scouting by yawnion clubs. It's alright sending a few players into schools as community development, but until we have good solid teaching in PE of the basics and find a way to channel that through into a solid junior system with good quality coaching and scouting systems that are happy to wander from the beaten path we will be struggling with similar issues.

International Rugby League will never compete with International Rugby Union, no further argument there.

As for the patriotism, take a look at the crowd at your average International fixture at Twickenham, Murrayfield or the Millenium and ponder a while at all of the national shirts on display and try and find factions of individual club team shirts - then compare to your average rugby league international and view the overwhelming individual club team shirts, listen to the booing as your own country's players touch the ball (if they play for the team you "hate"icon_wink.gif, and you'll have part of the answer as to why RL can never hope to compete with RU on the international stage.

I watched 2 live games today with an England side.

The game where England lost was far more enjoyable