No I asked about his stats in the second half of the season against the better sides as you well knew

You were selective in only choosing the poorer sides as proof of how good he had been in the second half. Your decision to use stats from earlier in the season were because the stats at the back end against the better sides weren't so hot? Nothing wrong with that it what everyone does on here - my point was JC was criticised for using the exact same tactic as you but your use of the tactic was overlooked.

Just like everyone else on here!! What it does show for me that he isn't the finished article and the stats suggest he isn't quite as far ahead of his peer group as some on here would suggest.

He's not the finished article attacking wise but I wouldn't swop him for any other SL fullback

Just reading through the 'stat' posts and realise that these cold stats prove absolutely nothing without factoring in a couple of variables.

What would the FB stats look like on a 'per game' basis when we take into account that Wellens didn't play the entire season at FB and Zak was sat on the sidelines for a significant chunk of the season?

No you questioned whether he could perform against the better sides because he didn't play well in those final few games against Wigan, Saints and Catalans asked.....



I just highlighted that whilst he didn't perform well in those last few games, he can and has performed against those sides.

If you "can't be d" why get into an argument?

The SL do not find per carry stats laughable. They publish them to show the average metre gain in the official SL stats. Take a look some time. And they are used by coaches to assess peformance.



Oh yeah? But didn't you just say that comparing the number of carries was "laughable"


I can guess why you didn't also record the other stats! So I will supply the stats you chose to omit it:-

Hardaker made 3254 metres with an average gain of 8.14 with 103 tackle busts, 30 errors, 21 offloads and 4 penalties
Russell made 3548 metres with an average gain of 9.28 with 107 tackle busts, 21 errors, 28 offloads and 1 penalty

Moving back to the original discussion regarding attacking abilities of SL fullbacks I checked the list for you using your chosen stats method and it clearly shows 7 other fullbacks were better in the three key attacking stats on the SL site: ie; at try scoring, try assists and clean breaks. Laugh that one off



Difficult to pick just 3 or 4 out of the list of 7

Perhaps if you were able to use some stats to back up your claims then you would be more credible eh rhinoms

Coaches and managers make great used of their laptops.

With regard to errors the SL stats record 11 full backs with a lower error count than Hardaker and 3 with a higher error count.

I fully agree with Zak's excellent capabilities under the high ball and but this discussion was not about defense

Please do try though, we're all dying to know.

when did anyone ask who was ahead of Harkdaker in those 3 stats averages?
i asked who the 3 or 4 full back backs are who are at least as good as Hardaker.

It's 7 now apparently



Escare, Hanbury, Eden, Shaul, Bowen, Wellens and the almighty Luke Dorn

greg eden must be better as he plays for brisbane broncos,and he's the new billy slater

also, if anyone wants to play a game:

ive decided that wingers can be boiled down to their abilities via 3 main stats (tries, clean breaks & metres per carry) given that their job is to score tries and sometimes help a team out of their 20

Player A: a try every 14.55 carries; a clean break every 11.19 carries; 9.01 metres per carry
Player B: a try every 16.18 carries; a clean break every 12.95 carries; 9.08 metres per carry
Player C: a try every 26.43 carries; a clean break every 23.5 carries; 7.54 metres per carry

anyone want to guess which one is easily England's first choice winger, is in the Super League Dream Team, and was included in the World XIII (even though i can see from his stats he's a fat sack of crap)?

I wouldn't call Tommy Makinson fat or crap

I was just looking at wingers myself. Going by tries per carry then Richard Owen, Gene Ormsby, Francis Meli and Omari Caro are all superior wingers compared to Ryan Hall. Omari Caro almost 3 times the finisher that Ryan Hall is

i think that you have fully illustrated just how important stats are in regards to which players are better than others with this post

imo stats can be very useful but they clearly don't always reveal the whole truth and i'm pretty sure that team coaches (and in any sport)that are worth their salt, wouldn't pick their teams based on them alone

i'd much rather watch the game and then judge who i think is the better player rather that rely on stats

Ok here is another game

Team A: score a try every 34.57 carries, and a try assist every 42.79 carries, make a clean break every 27.05 carries with a m/c average of 7.04
Team B: score a try every 45.02 carries, and a try assist every 53.25 carries, make a clean break every 33.16 carries with a m/c average of 6.86
Team C: score a try every 56.41 carries, and a try assist every 69.69 carries, make a clean break every 38.75 carries with a m/c average of 6.39

Anyone want to guess which team finished 1st, which team finished last and for a bonus point in what place did team B finish.?

And the relevance to your flawed Hardaker stats is???

Zzzzzzzzzz

I'll play!

its a trick question...
Team A is Wigan
Team C is London
Team B is Leeds

but...

wait for it...

Saint Helens finished first, and also won Super League

Looks a good game that but you forgot to name those 3-4 full backs who're better than ZH

this. still waiting...

Sorry no bonus point for you as you failed to answer the third question correctly. The correct answer was 7th place. Because this was the SL team try scorers list. As we were talking about attacking ability it was appropriate to demonstrate to you how a more forensic use of stats accurately reflect the performance of the top, bottom and middling attacking sides.

Team B was indeed Leeds but you should have read the question before answering. Funny how the 'stats per carry' just keep on correlating with performance facts!



Applying the 'per carry' stats for the SL table produces similar results and it clearly shows how better and more effective use of the ball (in the carry) brings better results both for the team and the player individually.

Jesus! Don't you just wish the season would start?