In what way exactly do you think?

Probably when he can have a more experienced winger outside him. I'm guessing he doesn't want to split the Moon/Hall partnership up by putting Moon over to the right centre position so that's leaves you with a potential Vickery/Keinhorst pairing......too inexperienced for the tough games we've had/have coming up IMO and unnecessary giving Ablett can give you very good quality there (granted he didn't get much joy from Percival).

Lets not forget this has then led to Ward getting starts (in which he's done very well in) and also Clarkson would then probably drop out of the 17 if Ablett headed back to the pack. So 2 other academy lads (1 of which has being earmarked for having the best prospects that any academy lad has being giving in a long time) have benifitted, just not in the backs.

Singing songs? Telling jokes? Giving home decor advice? Teaching them Latin?

How do you think!

He's probably really impressing McDermott on how better to handle a rubber glove at half time.

I know it breaks your heart that Chisholm doesn't get picked but you have to get over it.

I've no doubt Vickery is a good trainer (if the coaching staff say so) and a tryer out on the field but that should go without saying in a professional sport. At this level he needs to offer something over and above a good work ethic.

Whatever Scott Donald's perceived weaknesses were he always had pace to burn which for a winger is always a good starting point. Even the big wingers - such as Boston, Grothe, Vaikona, Vainikolo, Hall - could still shift. By comparison Vickery looks like he's running in treacle.

Hull have a young winger (Tom Lineham - originally from Leeds(?)) who would fit the bill. Why haven't Leeds got someone like that coming through the ranks? Vickery is probably just as big but he plays without the same heart.

Maybe Vickery is stronger, fitter, better under the high ball, better positioning, better defender.

Again, I'd back the professional coaches who see the players every day, rather than max of an hour and a half a week.

Also, arguments about it being safer on the wing, I disagree. Defensively you are most exposed and weaknesses are most easily exploited.

Briscoe anyone ?!?

You seem to have made your mind up about Vickery pretty quickly. I've yet to be persuaded either way; what you see as lack of heart might just as easily be lack of confidence or, conceivably, carrying a knock.

I can't really comment on Lineham, only having seen him the odd time, but I'm not convinced that Hull's production line is the model we should aspire to. With regard to our own, I'd agree that we should be producing players for every position although a shortage of wingers worries me less than would, say, failure to develop talent at 1, 6, 7 or 9.

My mind isn't made up as such, I'm commenting on what I've seen of him so far and based on that questioning why the much vaunted Leeds Academy haven't produced someone with more of a threat to offer.

The CEO boasted this was the greatest Leeds 'squad' he'd ever assembled then started the season with Vickery in the run-on side. Is it unreasonable to hold the CEO to his word and judge the additions to the squad in those terms?

Crediting Hull's production line (Academy ?) for Lineham would be a little like crediting Leeds Academy for producing someone like Zak Hardaker. I don't give a great deal of credit for either in those instances.

WRT our academy, I suspect the answer depends on whether one expects it to produce quality players in every position. This isn't in itself an unreasonable aim but clearly we're not at that stage yet; indeed, we may never be, given that it's something that no club has achieved thus far.

Re GH's comments, assessing the quality of squad's always going to be a somewhat subjective exercise and it might be he was speaking with a genuine belief that he really had put together the greatest-ever Leeds squad. But my guess is that his comments were made with an eye towards selling season tickets rather than being based on any genuine opinion of the squad's quality.

But ultimately you're right in that it's not unreasonable to question the validity of his comments. However, I suspect he'll hardly have been the only one talking up the merits of his own team in the run-up to the season.

It's not unreasonable but it is niaive.

The double glazing salesman in him still surfaces every now and again and so it should when there are season tickets to be sold.

"My mind isn't made up.....as such" Mmm. Yet you choose to spout negative comments on Vickery after so little game time, and so little time with the ball in hand.



Yes it is most "unreasonable to hold the CEO to his word and judge the additions to the squad" so early in the season. The reason Vickery has made the starting line up is the injury to BJB plus his good pre-season work...something that you did not see. I have come to expect your comments to have a certain negative side to them but would still take them more seriously if they had balance ...say by giving equal space to judging the addition of the classy Moon.

I'm giving my opinion on the player just as you have previously. Sorry if my opinion differs to yours.



Pre-season counts for very little IMO whether seen or unseen. I made no comment on Vickery's addition to the squad until I saw him play 1st grade. The CEO said 'squad' rather than 'starting 13' or even 'gameday 17' and Vickery forms part of that squad and should be judged against that comment.



Moon appears a good addition to the squad at this stage and finally addresses the loss of Keith Senior - May 2011. I rated Moon in his time at Salford much the same as I rated Hauraki in his time at the Crusaders and he's oddly looking the part again now he's at Castleford.

No need to apologise for giving an opinion old boy but I'll accept it for the negativity though!



This maybe true in the world of the keyboard coach but out there in the real rugby world it counts for a lot.




I suppose this is the most positive comment I can prise out, so thanks for that.

Someone get the word out to GH, next pre-season just to satisfy tvoc he must announce that this is the 14th best Leeds squad of all time.



As for wingers, remind me who played on the wing for us in the last 2 GF wins and where they came from? It's probably most unreasonable to expect new ones year-upon-year, and lets not forget we've won GF's with other Academy players on in the wing in Calderwood & Lee Smith. 3 of those have played for the England, 1 for the Knights, we've hardly done bad just because our back-up winger for the first 5/6 games of 2013 hasn't come from the Academy.

TBF, statistically, this must be the best we have started the season in some time. TVOC may or may not back me up on this though.

A look at the fixtures at the start of the season and you would have been disappointed if we hadn't won three out of four in SL (I had us winning at Cas but losing at Saints).

The next two weeks will provide an acid test of where we are domestically. Two consecutive big efforts at this stage of the season, asking a lot to back it up with another two.

Im not on about wins/losses. I mean defence, completion rates, missed tackles ect. We could have won 3 from 4 and been half as good as how we have really started.

Defensively, after 4 games last year we had also won 3 but conceded 20 points more. Against the same teams in the corresponding fixtures last year we conceded 78.

That's just a start, but to me it shows we are playing better where it matters. In D.

i would be keen to see this switch, hall and keinhorst played well together last season especially at Catalan and Moon and Vickery are most likely good buddies off the field, walking around Headingley in flip flops and shorts

I hope they are in full-on Aussie mode

There are a host of very average players that get a game in the NRL especially on the wing - we see them week in week out in SL. The fact that Vickery got nowhere near playing regularly in the NRL suggests his talents are not of the highest order and nothing he has done on the field suggests otherwise.

The bigger question is why is he getting a game at Leeds?

Looking on the Titans message board it wasnt ball in hand that was his problem, it was defense and as anyone who watches the NRL knows, thats the most important part of an outside backs game.

Because Ben Jones Bishop is injured !
If Ben Jones Bishop would not have had a serious illness at the time would we have signed him ? The answer could be no, I have not seen enough of him to make an opinion. has he disapointed me ? No, has he impressed me No, so he has done a steady job and not let anyone down. Dont judge him on a handful of games most players take a season to settle in and get up to speed.

People still continue to miss the point it appears



If the lad had been targeted and signed as an established talent with automatic first team credentials I, for one, would be giving him chance to "get up to speed".

However, he came as an unknown and was [uNOT[/u targeted as a signing. Therefore the question remains why has he being given priority to establish himself over all those targeted and signed acadamey lads who might justifiably ask the question why so?
What exactly is Vickery's claim to the right wing position? Just how would the club have managed without his unexpected arrival? Should the acadamey scouts be sacked for sourcing apparently inferior players to the (admirable) chancer from Australia?