Well I saw plenty of these legends play and no way do their deeds pale. My understanding of "Greatest" in the thread title is with regard to their rugby skills.

If your sole criteria for judging greatness of a player is according to the number of cups they won then I prefer to stay misty eyed. By your criteria of Greatest you will have to include the likes of Kirke & Bailey.

Memories of Sinny lifting a Cup for me will fade but not the many great rugby moments that those legends provided - they are there for ever!

That would be very close to my team only Godden for Carroll and not Peacock twice.

Very good post.

Always dissapoints me how many people form opinions based purely on cups, medals, or even number of try's scored.

Player contributions and skills can be defined a lot more than those labels. Some of the best players ever, never got to play in a cup final or for a "big club" to give them that a chance.

The thread is on the players you have seen play, so any poster can only relate to that. It appears we have a very young majority of posters on southstander.com.

You don't think the present generation possess sublime rugby skills? I've seen moments of sublime skill from McGuire, Burrow, Sinfield, Ali, Webb, Donald, Hall, Harris, Lyons , Ettinghausen, Schofield, Hanley etc etc that I will look back on with the same justified rose tintedness that you look back upon older generations of players.

My "sole criteria" is not cups won. However, I think older generations do look back through rose tinted glasses. I posted a couple of months ago about the season Leeds were enduring under Hynes in 1978 when they won the cup against Saints. It was worse than this season. But as time passes so does the memory of the mundane displays and all that we remember are the great ones.

That is why many of this team doesn't get the recognition it deserves because it's still playing. In fifteen years time I suspect my generation will be waxing lyrical just like older generations do about the players they watched.

Of course it's subjective but there is one inalienable truth. This is a team sport when they aim is success for the team. In terms of championships this generation of players have surpassed anything that generations past have managed and that has to be recognised. This is not tennis.

You can't pick a team until you have picked a coach and know how you want them to play.

In a team sport, the way the coach wants the team to play determines which players get the gig...

So in 20 years you will be waxing lyrical about how great Ian Kirke and Lee Smith were?

No you won't will you. You hit the nail on the head in that final paragraph, it's a team sport. We have had a fair few individuals over the last 7 years that have been extremely lucky to play in such a very good squad of players. And just because they achieved the same honours, this does not mean to say that we will look back on them individually as one of the greats.

Just like many true greats have not even had the opportunity of playing in matches where honours can be won. Not by there own doing, but by chance of playing for the team they did.

No, but then again I haven't named them in my 17 have I? That said, I might wax lyrical about Smith as the years progress, forgetting the indifferent form this year and remembering him as a big match player in 3 GFs in 3 different positions. His display in the 2008 game, given the circumstances, should become stuff of legends. Which kind of proves my point about the passage of time affecting the memory.

I agree. I didn't name Kirke in my 17 did i?

I'm not sure what your point is (again). You've invented what you think I am saying and you're arguing with it. I named my greatest 17. It didn't contain Kirke etc.

An interesting thought comes to mind... I wonder what Tony Smith would have done with Garry Schofield. He got shut of Gleeson ASAP from the Wire but on the other hand he helped focus and revitalise Lee Briers.

Good point. Everyone assumed Briers would be out when Smith got the job. I am guessing Briers made a commitment to be more of a professional. It shows, IMO, in his physique and defensive application under Smith.

I'm not sure Schoey would have made the same commitment. I suspect he'd have focused his energies on undermining Smith at every opportunity. I also suspect Smith would have succeeded where Dougie failed and gotten rid of him.

I could pick an all import team:

Curry
ET
Innes
Bell
Grothe
Jackson
Lyons

Leuleui
Buderus
Patterson
Ali
Furner
Glanville

Or my British version:

Harris
Senior
Holmes
Dyl
Bentley
Heron
Schofield

Powell
Ward
Peacock
Morley
Sinfield
Hanley

JJB
Dixon
Ellis
McGuire

Oh, and best foreign coach, Tony Smith, best British coach...Tony Smith

What ever Smith has done with Briers it has worked, he obviously knew he could work with Briers and get him too change his lifestyle.

He must of thought that Gleeson was beyond help and Gleeson himself proved that with his antics after moving to Wigan.

Ooh, that's an interesting version - let's try...

Webb
Grothe
Currie
Godden
Ettingshausen
Jackson
Lyons
Tunks
Buderus
Patterson
Lauitiiti
Furner
Glanville

Or one based entirely on the club's own youth products

Mathers
Alan Smith
Walker
Dyl
Atkinson
Holmes
Burrow
Powell
Ward
Pitchford
Morley
Eccles
Sinfield

Webb was a tough one to leave out, at his bristling best he was aggresive and brilliant in attack (while a little head high when defending). Currie and ET could interchange in my selection but Currie set Headingley on fire one night while at FB playing against (I think) a touring NZ Maori team. Like a lot of Aussie backs of that time he had all the abilities of a great full back.
Bell and Godden was a tough choice as well, but I guess I saw all Bell's games in the flesh and that tipped it (plus he lived 2 minutes from my house when he was in Leeds).

Imports in my time (1989/90 onwards):

Mullins

No, not really:

1: Webb
2:
3: Innes
4: Godden
5: Bai
6: Dunneman
7:
8: Leuluai
9: Buderus
10:
11: Lauititi
12: Glanville
13: Furner

I actually struggled in a few positions, without picking Jamie Mathiou, Eddie Rombo and Patrick Entat...

Can I count Welsh people as imports please?

Phil Ford and Iestyn Harris could fill a couple of those gaps then.

Yes I do think that some of the present generation possess sublime rugby skills which is why I included several in my "greatest 17" So no rose tintedness there.



How do you know that the older generation look back through rose tinted glasses? Unless you had witnessed the rugby skills of some of these legends then you are not in any position to imply that the opinion of others is somewhat coloured with a rose tint.

Are you saying your own selections are based on good rugby acumen?

Because you have included several players who didn't win much and may qualify as recent past legends. Younger posters may also never have seen these play. So does that then compromise your selections and qualify you for a free pair of Specsavers best rose tints?



I think the stars of this team (when in their prime) have been recognised as legends. Because they are still playing doesn't prevent this.





It may not be tennis but it is also not what this thread is all about. To quote you "read the thread title carefully"

You are off at a tangent again and despite your claim that "My sole criteria is not cups won" you come back with it yet again.

The thread is about the "greatest 17 in your era of watching Leeds" Most have chosen based on the greatest and most gifted players they have seen and not if they had won anything.

Yes this is a team game and yes we all want to win. But first and formost it is about entertainment provided by rugby skills. I repeat I have vivid memories of individual skills combined together to provide brilliant sweeping moves that sometimes didn't achieve a try let alone a cup. But by golly I had witnessed rugby greatness!

2-Donald
Was Coleman 1989?
10-Masella

7 - Dean Clarke?

Also Masella isn't a bad call. I could, on reflection, have had Flymo too. Liked him.

I think Coleman left the year before I started going. Which means it was probably the 1990/91 season that I started going, not 1989/90. My memory isn't what it was....

What about Tony Kemp?

At number 8? Sure.

Oh boy how I wish it had been Nikau not Kemp that we had got.

Tony Kemp was a very good player.

For Cas.

Here goes

1. Harris
2. Grothe
3. Godden
4. Hynes
5. Atkinson
6. Shoebottom
7. Lyon
8. Pitchford
9. Buderus
10.Powell
11.Morley
12.Haigh
13.Hanley

14.Fisher
15.Glanville
16.Ettinghausen
17.Slammin Sam

Like everything else, Rugby League has been getting steadily worse since it was invented.

surely slammin sam is in the category of players leaving there best game somewhere else