On the basis that coach McClennan excluded him from the 17's that preceded the WCC and the WCC itself?

Burgess at that point was yet to make his 1st Grade debut for Leeds and I'd suggest it wasn't unreasonable for coach McClennan to stick with the players that had taken out the previous season's Grand Final who were all still available for selection + Nick Scruton who was higher up the pecking order.

Coach McClennan giving Burgess his Leeds debut and selecting him in 58 games of the 73 since (and some of the ones he missed were injury related) is hardly a convincing sign that he doesn't rate him.



I was unsure of the exact wording which is why I didn't "quote" and only paraphrased from memory. 'there was little chance of Lee Smith signing' and 'I suspect if he does come back we're out of the running' amount to much the same sentiment.

Which bit was your source perfectly accurate on? Is it the 'he's in no rush to come back' or was that you again at that point?



I think Frosties may have done?

with regards to the lee smith deal a poster on here, not gareth, text me with updates and they concur with what gareth said in all aspects so he is right on that matter.

god that hurt defending him

So basically are we saying that Burgess felt McLennan did not rate him back in 2008?
But now we are in 2010 and he has played a high percentage of games.
Does he still feel the same?

Actually, and I accept I didn't make my question clear, I meant at the start of THIS season, when everyone was available, did Burgess make the 17?

Again, to reiterate, Burgess' [ithought[/i that the coach didn't rate him during 2008. Whether Burgess was right or not is another matter. It's hard to debate some one's thoughts unless they've been articulated to you. I claim they have been articulated to me (take it or leave it). I assume you do not claim that those thoughts have been articulated to you?

So, I am not entirely sure what we're discussing here. The only discussion is whether my claims that Luke's thoughts were articulated to me is fantasy or truth. I assume you have some doubts which is why you brought the Lee Smith post into the equation.

regardless, it's clear to those who can read that those sentiments are expressed as my opinion. The part where I quote my source was shown to be 100% accurate.

Well, it's not particularly difficult, unless you're being obtuse but "Wasps are trying to "iron out his RL habits" and if he comes back to RL it will be full time" At the time I posted virtually all the discussion (and the publicity) had been about a loan deal. What I was told turned out to be spot on.

No, that is what I was told. At the time the reference was in relation to a loan deal. I guess things changed quickly when Leeds were able to offer a permanent contract. That previous sentence is my supposition in case you're not following.

You should take a shower.

No idea.

If everyone was available at the start of the season did Webb and Peacock also have doubts whether coach McClennan rated them or was that only in relation to Burgess in 2008, in which case is the start of 2010 relevant? All three played in the following game as coach McClennan gave all of his top twenty a run in the opening two fixtures. With regards to Peacock/Leuluai, Burgess/Kirke perhaps that was what he planned to do before a ball was kicked but unfortunately I don't know what he was thinking and can only comment on what he did.



I can 'take it' that it was articulated to you in person and I'm grateful you have now clarified your source on this matter.

Previously you stated [i'Luke's own view in 2008 was that Mclennan didn't rate him'[/i but followed that up later with [i'Of course, I am passing on information from an =#FF0000un-named source so you will have to take it at face value, or not but those were his views.'[/i



Coach McClennan's selections and words suggest that he rated Burgess and let's not forget Burgess was given a two year extension to his existing contract in August 2008 (article posted below) taking him through to the end of 2011. I presume coach McClennan had a large input in that decision also.

Perhaps Burgess shares our inability to interpret correctly at times.



Yes, virtually being the key word. It was something I think I recall Frosties claiming in his earlier postings regarding a possible Lee Smith return.

Double boost for the Rhinos
22nd August 2008

[iYoung guns Luke Burgess and Carl Ablett have given Leeds Rhinos a massive fillip ahead of tonight’s trip to Wigan Warriors – by agreeing new contracts. Prop Burgess – who had a year remaining on his existing deal – has signed a two-year extension which will keep him at Rhinos until the end of 2011. Second-row/centre Ablett, 22, would have been out of contract this year, but has put pen to paper on a new one-year deal. Burgess, 21, has made a big impression for the Rhinos since breaking into the senior side five months ago, while Ablett is in his fifth season as a first team player and was a member of last year’s Grand Final-winning 17. Burgess’ new deal is a setback for Bradford Bulls, who had been planning a move for the player at the end of next season.
”I had another year left on my contract, but it’s nice to get things done early,” said Burgess. “Now I can just get on with the rest of this year and the next three years. It has been a good year and it’s the icing on the cake to sign a new contract.” Burgess said he was “encouraged” the club were so keen to keep him on board. He added: “It gives me confidence that the club and coaches are pleased with my progress and I am looking forward to concentrating on my rugby and helping the team to win some silverware. The coaching staff have been brilliant with me. Brian McClennan, Francis Cummins and Willie Poching have helped me to develop my game and our conditioner, Jason Davidson, has got me in great shape and kept on at me all year to improve my fitness. I have done a lot of one-on-one work with Francis Cummins after training and he and Willie work with me on the weak areas of my game. Brian has been a massive influence on me, given me a lot of confidence and taught me great things.” Ablett declared himself “really pleased” to be staying at Leeds for another year. ”Hopefully I can build on this season in 2009,” he said. ”I have been playing a lot at centre this year, which has helped to develop different aspects of my game and I am happy to play wherever the coaching staff feel I can best help the team. I am still only 22 and I am hoping to continue to learn and develop at the Rhinos.” Head coach Brian McClennan said: “This is terrific news for the club. To secure two of our top young rising stars is great news. Luke has had a great year to date in his first season in the top grade and his potential is enormous. The club’s policy is to keep people like him on board and to progress talented young players through the ranks. Those who work hard and achieve are rewarded with upgraded and extended contracts and I think that is the right way to do things. Luke has been through our academy system and that has come to fruition in the first team this season. Hopefully he will keep improving and turn into a top Super League player. Carl has shown terrific versatility this year because of injuries. He has shown that in the centres but is still only young.
We know he will keep on improving and it is good to have him on board for next season.”[/i

I repeat, those were Luke's feelings. Whether Luke was correct and what Mclennan actually thought I have no knowledge of and have never claimed to have. As the thread is discussing a possible Burgess departure I thought it might interest some posters that Luke went through a period of feeling "un-valued" at Leeds. I make no comment on whether he was right to feel that way, but that way he felt.

I've clarified nothing and you can take nothing. You can either take what I've said at face value or dismiss it (or debate the minutiae out of it). I've not and will not be naming my source.

Thank you for repeating that. That was Luke's view and my source remains un-named.

Absolutely. Perhaps Burgess was wrong to feel the way he did. You should be having this discussion with Burgess you know.

Speak for yourself.

Well, perhaps his source was as accurate as mine though I am surprised you're going on recollection and haven't provided a link, given your penchant for so doing. Or is it just my posts that you book mark?

At no point have I been particulary interested in who said what to you or whether it was first or second hand information, only whether the actions of coach McClennan backed up the sentiment expressed or not. Quote ="G1"Speak for yourself.'" Broughton playing at a higher level when he moved from the Leeds Reserves to play in Hull's 1st grade SL side being a recent example. Quote ="G1"I am surprised you're going on recollection and haven't provided a link, given your penchant for so doing. Or is it just my posts that you book mark?'" I bookmark no-one's posts, yours included, I thought that much would be obvious from your earlier observation. There is a search button that assists in finding posts though if you can at least recollect the gist of what was said, on which forum and by whom. I've just searched for 'gist' and 'tvoc' on 'Southstander' and here's the result: search.php?keywords=gist&terms=all&author=tvoc&fid

At no point have I been particulary interested in who said what to you or whether it was first or second hand information, only whether the actions of coach McClennan backed up the sentiment expressed or not. Quote ="G1"Speak for yourself.'" Broughton playing at a higher level when he moved from the Leeds Reserves to play in Hull's 1st grade SL side being a recent example. Quote ="G1"I am surprised you're going on recollection and haven't provided a link, given your penchant for so doing. Or is it just my posts that you book mark?'" I bookmark no-one's posts, yours included, I thought that much would be obvious from your earlier observation. There is a search button that assists in finding posts though if you can at least recollect the gist of what was said, on which forum and by whom. I've just searched for 'gist' and 'tvoc' on 'Southstander' and here's the result: search.php?keywords=gist&terms=all&author=tvoc&fid

Quote ="tvoc"At no point have I been particulary interested in who said what to you or whether it was first or second hand information, only whether the actions of coach McClennan backed up the sentiment expressed or not. '" Then I wonder why the discussion has gone so far given that I never expressed a view on whether or not the coaches actions were consistent with the player's beliefs. Quote I bookmark no-one's posts, yours included'" , You hurt my feelings. Quote There is a search button that assists in finding posts though if you can at least recollect the gist of what was said, on which forum and by whom. I've just searched for 'gist' and 'tvoc' on 'Southstander' and here's the result: search.php?keywords=gist&terms=all&author=tvoc&fid'" As you've asserted that Frosties mentioned Smith returning permenantly before I quoted my "source" on that I would usually expect you to have used that function.

Quote ="tvoc"At no point have I been particulary interested in who said what to you or whether it was first or second hand information, only whether the actions of coach McClennan backed up the sentiment expressed or not. '" Then I wonder why the discussion has gone so far given that I never expressed a view on whether or not the coaches actions were consistent with the player's beliefs. Quote I bookmark no-one's posts, yours included'" , You hurt my feelings. Quote There is a search button that assists in finding posts though if you can at least recollect the gist of what was said, on which forum and by whom. I've just searched for 'gist' and 'tvoc' on 'Southstander' and here's the result: search.php?keywords=gist&terms=all&author=tvoc&fid'" As you've asserted that Frosties mentioned Smith returning permenantly before I quoted my "source" on that I would usually expect you to have used that function.

So far?

It's hardly gone anywhere (nor was ever likely to) other than my referring to Coach McClennan's actions re Burgess' selections since his debut and posting articles with directly attributable quotes by both player and coach.

Double boost for the Rhinos
22nd August 2008

Young guns Luke Burgess and Carl Ablett have given Leeds Rhinos a massive fillip ahead of tonight’s trip to Wigan Warriors – by agreeing new contracts. Prop Burgess – who had a year remaining on his existing deal – has signed a two-year extension which will keep him at Rhinos until the end of 2011. Second-row/centre Ablett, 22, would have been out of contract this year, but has put pen to paper on a new one-year deal. Burgess, 21, has made a big impression for the Rhinos since breaking into the senior side five months ago, while Ablett is in his fifth season as a first team player and was a member of last year’s Grand Final-winning 17. Burgess’ new deal is a setback for Bradford Bulls, who had been planning a move for the player at the end of next season. ”=#FF4000I had another year left on my contract, but it’s nice to get things done early,” said Burgess. “=#FF0000Now I can just get on with the rest of this year and the next three years. It has been a good year and it’s the icing on the cake to sign a new contract.” Burgess said he was “=#FF0000encouraged” the club were so keen to keep him on board. He added: “=#FF0000It gives me confidence that the club and coaches are pleased with my progress and I am looking forward to concentrating on my rugby and helping the team to win some silverware. The coaching staff have been brilliant with me. Brian McClennan, Francis Cummins and Willie Poching have helped me to develop my game and our conditioner, Jason Davidson, has got me in great shape and kept on at me all year to improve my fitness. I have done a lot of one-on-one work with Francis Cummins after training and he and Willie work with me on the weak areas of my game. Brian has been a massive influence on me, given me a lot of confidence and taught me great things.” Ablett declared himself “really pleased” to be staying at Leeds for another year. ”Hopefully I can build on this season in 2009,” he said. ”I have been playing a lot at centre this year, which has helped to develop different aspects of my game and I am happy to play wherever the coaching staff feel I can best help the team. I am still only 22 and I am hoping to continue to learn and develop at the Rhinos.” Head coach Brian McClennan said: “=#0000BFThis is terrific news for the club. To secure two of our top young rising stars is great news. Luke has had a great year to date in his first season in the top grade and his potential is enormous. The club’s policy is to keep people like him on board and to progress talented young players through the ranks. Those who work hard and achieve are rewarded with upgraded and extended contracts and I think that is the right way to do things. Luke has been through our academy system and that has come to fruition in the first team this season. Hopefully he will keep improving and turn into a top Super League player. Carl has shown terrific versatility this year because of injuries. He has shown that in the centres but is still only young. We know he will keep on improving and it is good to have him on board for next season.”



Try it and see if you get any further than I did. Sometimes the function is use-full other times it's use-less.

You want me to help you prove your assertions? Do it yourself.

Where have I asserted anything?

So we've both skirted around the issue of whether I was first without committing ourselves either way.

Cheers fellas! I was having trouble sleeping! Nighty,night!

IMO G1 and TVOC just need to get a room.

It might clear the air with them both – we can all feel the sexual tension between them.

I'm up for it.

I think you are selling him a bit short there, he is a young lad, and as the stats provided show he is performing better than some of our props. He seems to be one of the players that our fans get on the back of at the slightest mistakes, and they get blown up. Other players who are average team players can do no wrong like bailey, IMO

It's like watching Ali vs. Frazier. Awesome.

Shocker!!!

Ever had any sexual harassment claims against you at work??

Or did you just give them a bung?

Can't say.

The settlements all had a confidentiality clause.

So you keep their mouths closed one way or another it seems??

I can swallow that.

I've got a job for you.

Great stuff. I'm sure we can arrange terms.

Can we wait until after I've eaten? Because to line my stomach with 'that' would be an all new low, even for me.