So do we think the Sutcliffe switch to full back is permanent?

He seems to be growing into the role and I don't think Zak will be back.

Probably. He looks solid enough on current evidence. Lots of work to do of course.The middle 8s should be a good time for him to improve his game on attack, chiming into the line and linking etc.. if we can get on top in some of the matches.

I dont think it is permanent but he may play there for a year or two to ease the pressure off him, then get moved back into the halves, it is a lot more common in the NRL with young halves

I hope he eventually is moved back to 6 as on the whole there is an all time low of quality british halves

How dare you. Wash your mouth out!!

Thought when Wigan were chasing the game and forced into being more expansive late on, they looked better for it. Almost played into Leeds's hands with their conservative game plan for the first 65 minutes. With pace on the game and ball movement we looked to be struggling to live with them defensively.

Way too much dropped ball for both coaches' liking I would have thought. Some of it forced by good defence, but a lot of it through loose carries or dumb offloads.

Couple of thoughts on the controversial incidents. Charnley will be very, very lucky if he avoids a ban. Bailey got three games for making contact with an official during play when trying to defend his own try-line. The ball was dead in this instance, play had stopped and Charnley deliberately went to grab Hicks's arm. Should be looking at three minimum, but I don't doubt Wigan will play the "previous good character" card like they did with O'Loughlin.

I thought the Cuthbertson explanation of the Tautai incident was excellent at the touch screen. Tautai has come in to attempt to pin the legs of the ball carrier together and stop the leg drive. If you watch his arms, he is attempting to wrap them and not just flying in shoulder first. The force applied by the two defenders up top then bends the player back at an unnatural angle, unable to adjust their feet to compensate.

On first look, I thought it was a cannonball and said as much. On review, I'm less convinced that it was.

It seems to have coincided with Hardakers decision to move down under. Is this a coincidence? had he become a disruptive element? His game has been a shadow of last year for most of the season and Im guessing hes been agitating for the move since the off season. Maybe better of he doesnt come back however good we know he can be on top form. It does look like he wont get picked up in the NRL so he may be back with his tail between his legs

Thats my opinion of him also. Did much better last night and got some good low kicks in and with Burrow carrying on from last week with some good high kicks to the corner then looking much improved when near their line. However when we are 40/50m out we still look a bit messy when on the 5th tackle. One occasion Burrow almost gets trapped before managing to slide one out only to the 30m line and near the end Segeyaro just dinks one 5m through the defensive line when we were only on halfway with only minutes remaining. For our final set we also ended up with Hall 30m out running infield and chipping the ball over.....we did get away with that one however with Sarginson knocking on but not exactly the way we should've been organised on that last play.

All in all plenty of good performances. Thought the old guard of JJB, Delaney and Ablett had good games and showed what they can still offer. Singleton good and strong in defence but I would like to see him make more metres per carry if he's going to start at prop (14 carries, 77m, 5.50m avg). Thought Moon defended excellently before he had to go off and Keinhorst carried on where Moon left off. Hall strong again, Briscoe looked a bit rusty understandably.

Slack knock ons made life tougher than it should've been but good to see us winning collisions (the biggest difference from earlier this year) in both defence and attack and getting quick PTB's, we made a little bit short of 1500m against a notoriously tough defence without our leading metre making prop.

for me no. he's doing a decent job of it but he's not a natural there for me. i'd like a top class full back brought in

The highlight - other than the win - was when Hicks penalised Charnley for moving metres off the mark. Something he does every time he's tackled in an attempt to win a penalty for his side. This time Hicks wasn't fooled.

Our 5th tackle plays are still a mess and are often a result of dumb fourth tackle plays, more often than not our main kicker getting caught with the ball on the fourth. On Lilley, he had a better game than his nightmare against Hull - there's a lot wrong with his game but he is a tryer and seems to have the right personality to succeed. As has been said in here, how many 19 year-old halves have come into a team and looked good week-in week-out? Last one I can remember is probably Bobbie Goulding.

Lucas Albert is doing a decent job at Catalan. I think he's only the same age as Lilley, maybe younger.

Still I agree with the point, it's hard for young halves, especially if the rest of the team struggle.

Such a dumb play from Charnley too. Tierney had broke upfield to halfway and got tackled, quick PTB and Charnley is only denied by an ankle tap about 30m out....Leeds were spread to hell and scrambling back and only tackle 2 complete. Just PTB properly and you're in with a great chance to score. I know teams like to milk/win penalties but there's a right time to do and a wrong time to do it.

There were loads of really dumb plays towards the end.

Ryan Hall getting the ball on the last tackle with minutes remaining and game in the balance is pretty hard to beat, as well as chicko doing a grubber kick.............on the halfway line.

Even George williams' try, on the face of it, as a halfback running head on into 2 forwards on the last tackle is a stupid low percentage play.

On Hardaker, I have to agree that the team's morale seems so much improved since his departure. It fits well with the comments of a friend of mine who lives in the same village as Zack did. Apparently, things are allegedly much more serene now and the residents are no longer lodging complaints with his employers.
Will be interesting when/if he comes back.

True I suppose on Williams, if he did that for England and got tackled there on the last play he'd get slaughtered but I suppose that's the responsibility/risk that comes with playing in the halves.

I think those last couple of kicks of ours did come after Lilley went off so we were missing 1 HB so that didn't help but still should've avoided those situations. The Segeyaro one coming after Burrow going on a run on the 4th tackle, he almost gets down the wing and he does grab us valuable metres but as the only HB left on the field he's got to make sure he's not the one playing the ball on the last tackle....something he's been guilty of a few times in the past when playing hooker and resulting in either one of the halves or a forward having to go into dummy half on the 5th.

Again we looked unorganised for the Hall one and whilst it shouldn't happen again, fair play to Hall for turning a sloppy situation into something good, not just a decent kick but enthustic chase after it.

One more one, our last tackle of the match, passing it out wide and Watkins tries batting one of those no catch passes over to Briscoe and it goes into touch, totally unnecessary. I'm sure if it worked off and Briscoe got in people would say it was great but so much less control over those types of 'passes' and what if it looped up into a Wigan players hands and he got away downfield.

Not very often we've held 14 point leads this year. Saints came back at us before we won at Headingley, we managed to stroll away from Wakefield and let slip our lead vs Widnes a few weeks back. So whilst we held on this week we look like a team who is still re-learning how to win games again. At least we've gone from losing close games earlier in the year to winning them.....next step is that when have those sort of 2/3 score leads to not let them slip and let the opposition back in it.

So whilst we won and did play well, still plenty of room for improvement and stuff to work on.

Perhaps a bit harsh to link Hardaker's departure with upturn in mood/performance when several other factors in play. Back in the training ground will have lifted spirits, injured regulars returning will have done likewise. If Lowes is back and working with the defence and they can see the results then another factor and bringing in a top quality NRL hooker in a position that has been so problematic for us over the years will have no doubt lifted the spirits of the players.

Surprised Sutcliffe is getting a free pass on those poor last tackle plays.

With Lilley off the field, what was stopping him from stepping up and demanding the ball so he could take the responsibility for the kicks?

Sorry but i just dont see it with Lilley at all but i thought he was much improved last night and had a decent game overall without being much of a running threat. His defence seems to be improving, some of kicks into touch were sensible when the forwards needed a break. His lack of pace will always be there but i dont neccessarily think everybody has to have blistering pace, Sinny never had any. If a half lacks pace they must have creativity tho and i hope im wrong but ive seen little of it from Lilley and ive been to every game this season.

Young Jack Walker in 19s scored another 2 tries at Hull today through some great support play. Hes a stepper and a real running threat. Only 17 so not ready yet but to me hes more potential than Lilley if he can keep improving at the rate he is. All opinions tho.

Running halves always adapt better to full time playing at an early age, because people see a highlight real of a few tries and ignore the fact that he totally relies on another half to run the game they are allowed to make a few mistakes
Organising halves however get put under a lot more pressure at a young age because they are still learning a few things about the game

A big reason that the Aussies produce so much better halves than us is that they recognise this and give organising and kicking halves, for example Adam Reynolds, util they are 23/4 to truly see how good they are

No need to rush with Lilly

INOUT

All of the above is true fella but the ability has to be there in 1st place and in Lilley i havent seen the ability personally.

Yeah hes very young and has time to develop and improve. Hope the kid becomes a Leeds legend but i havent seen it yet. Only my opinion tho against plenty of people who seem to think hes the future.

Lilley needs a quality half back to play alongside or as understudy to to help him develop. I cant see McGuire lasting into next season as a real force given his age and injuries. I wouldnt be surprised if he called it a day at the end of the year

I cant see Danny retiring.

Well just like the likes of Hall and Ablett have returned from injury into a balanced squad with a quality 9 and found form alongside the likes of Watkins then hopefully McGuire does the same when he returns. In his post match interview, Lilley sounded like he expects McGuire to be back next week vs HKR.

In my view it is no coincidence that team spirit has improved since he departed. With more than half the triple winners missing because of injury or retirement it was incumbent on the senior players who did take the field to step up to the mark and show leadership, take responsibility and set a good example to the reserves and juniors who were thrown into a difficult situation. The likes of Burrow and JJB did do that but sadly the much overrated Hardaker was unable or unwilling to show the same character and was found badly wanting.

We may never know what off field stuff was going on but it is my guess that ZH's influence was not a positive one. I really hope his performances improve so that he remains down under.

I saw Maggsy after game on Fri and he looked to be walking fine so hopefully back next week.